Therapist Interviews Ara Macaren

Christopher Bruce (00:00):
Hi everyone, my name is South Florida, divorce attorney Christopher Bruce and I have the pleasure of being joined today by Ara Mascarinas. She is a pre-licensed mental health counselor in the Boca and Broward County area. She sees clients really in Palm Beach and in Broward County and does have a physical office in the Coconut Creek area. And today we’re going to be talking about something that her and I identify as very important in our respective professional practices. And that’s how to be an effective parent after your divorce. And we’re not just going to talk about theory, we’re going to talk about five things that you can do now to do a better job at parenting after your divorce. So, alright, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I very much appreciate it. And maybe before we just get into the material, I’ll tell everyone a little bit about your background and how you came to do this and we’ll go from there.

Ara Macaren (01:04):
Absolutely. Well firstly, thank you for having me. I know it’s been a lot. We’re both passionate about this subject, so it’s great that we get to collaborate in this way. So as you were saying, I’m a pre-licensed mental health counselor at Home for Balanced Psychotherapy Group and that is a private practice in Coconut Creek. I love working with children, teens, their families, parents. I’ve been doing that in a variety of settings for a couple of years now, whether that be in a school, in clinics, in outpatient services, and that’s kind of where my bread and butter is, right? Children as young as five and then teens. And I do a lot of collaboration with parents because I think that’s the best way to kind of create change. I focus on A D H D, behavior concerns, life transitions. So middle school to high school, I’m changing schools, divorce if my family is changing, my dynamic is changing, self-esteem, anxiety, depression, and trauma. I’m also fully bilingual so I can do services in English and Spanish.

Christopher Bruce (02:09):
It’s quite the background. I think you’re uniquely qualified to talk about what a lot of people are interested in learning when they think about the possible end of their marriage and that’s the divorce going to affect my children. So I’d love for you before we get into how to be a better parent, how people understand that issue.

Ara Macaren (02:33):
Yeah, absolutely. So I feel like the best way to approach this is change is always challenging for children and it’s also an inevitable part of life. And I say this because I feel like oftentimes parents ask me, am I a bad parent? Is my child going to be traumatized? I feel so guilty that I’m making this choice. So I think the most important part is part, as odd as it may sound, your job isn’t necessarily to take the pain away from your child. We totally wish we had that power and that control, but I think that’s not really our responsibility. Our responsibility is to connect with our child and provide comfort and safety during these times. So I feel like that’s always an important, this is a guilt free, shame-free space because change is going to happen regardless. With that being said, divorce does affect children.

Ara Macaren (03:36):
I think some common feelings that arise as maybe confusion, maybe there’s grief, maybe there’s anger, maybe there’s a little bit of anxiety. And I think the biggest issues that arise are the separation issues, right? Attachment. You can’t talk about divorce without talking about attachment and the importance of a secure attachment with the parents and the child. So some of the issues that you might see in the separation, it really depends on the child’s age, but they might be feel anxious about, are my needs going to be met at a very small minimal level? Will I still get comforted from mom and dad? There’s a lot of anger. Sometimes maybe they become overreactive. A lot of kids are very, children are very egocentric. So what does that mean? They think it’s all about them, which means what did I do wrong? Is it something about me, which is very common and it’s okay that the child feels that way and that’s why we go back to attachment.

Ara Macaren (04:39):
Mom and dad still love you. This is not your fault. So even though they’re navigating these complicated, I call them sticky emotions because they’re not very comfortable, but they’re not bad either. They’re just part of the human experience. So even though they might feel responsible, they might have anger, they might be confused, we can still sit with them in that discomfort. And again, it removes a lot of the shame and the guilt from it, especially when they’re teenagers. I feel also teens get affected a little bit more than children do, which sometimes people get to, but they have more awareness than a child. So let’s say a kid that’s two years old is going to worry about their needs being met. But if there’s grandma, if there’s uncle, if there’s mom or dad that’s really present, they’re going to be okay versus when you’re older, am I going to take the side of this parent? Am I going to involve myself in higher risky behavior? Now I might not want to be dealing with it and I’ll avoid it and do other situations. So I think does it affect children? Yes. Is it your fault? No. And is there something you can do about it? Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
So how critical is it to pay close attention to children after the divorce? I kind of wonder about that. I hear a lot of people just flippantly say, oh, children are resilient. They’ll get through it. But my feeling is that’s not really the case or not the best way to go through things. So I mean, for the people listening to this that want to do the best job they can, I mean, how closely should they be in touch with their children as they’re going through and I guess after the divorce process?

Ara Macaren (06:30):
Yeah, I like your question and I do agree. Children are resilient, but we have to give them the tools to be so right. We can’t just say, oh, slap it and be like, it’s fine. So we go back to attachment again. It’s kind of what I was saying at the beginning. We can’t talk about divorce without talking about attachment. I think they go hand in hand because, we’ll first, humans in general, we are wired for connection and belonging and it’s really important to us to feel seen and heard. That’s as adults, as children, that’s even more important and it’s more impactful. Now are you going to be perfect? No. If you’re 30% good enough that day, that’s good enough. I always say a hundred percent looks different every day and that’s okay. So I think that’s important too. Sometimes I feel like parents are really hard at themselves.

Ara Macaren (07:24):
Am I a bad parent? How do I do this? I don’t want to traumatize them. So if we just focus on secure attachment, that is our way home and that is how we make functional, healthy, authentic adults, which is something I always tell parents when I work with them and their children, we’re not going to be around forever. How can we give this person the best tools of survival for when they’re adults and how can we make this situation something to be learned from? So yes, children are resilient, but how do we make them? So we go back to attachment. How do we create secure attachment? I feel like we keep talking about it, but what does that really mean? Right?

Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, I was going to ask you, yes, how do we do that?

Ara Macaren (08:14):
So basically I think the best way to think about attachment is security and safety. If I cry, is my parent going to notice if I’m upset, is that person going to walk away from me? Are they going to pay attention to me and reassure me and tell me, Hey, it’s okay to be upset. Are they stable? Are they predictable? That’s a good way of asking it. So if my dad leaves, will he come back? If I throw a really big tantrum, will he pay attention? Will she notice if it’s my mom? So it’s being very stable and safe and aware. We’re also very affectionate. Maybe we have a good eye contact. We’re listening. That’s what I was kind of saying at the beginning. Parents often go on fixer mode. My kid is crying. How do I fix it? How do I take this away? But what are you really showing your child?

Ara Macaren (09:10):
This emotion is not okay, avoid it by all costs instead of, hey, you’re upset, you’re angry. That is allowed. You’re okay to feel that way. I see that you’re upset, I’m noticing it and I’m right here with you. That is a really good way to show your child, you’re seeing here you’re important and you matter. I also think something very important about it is having good boundaries and just being there for your child, but also saying, Hey, you can go out there and explore and you can come back when you’re ready. So it’s providing this safety, I call it bubble a lot of the time. So how do I create this bubble of security and stability and safety and that is securely a securely attached child. I know my parents were close. I know my parents notice me. I know that, that I matter to them and that’s good enough. So again, it’s gearing away from, let me fix this to it’s okay to feel this way. I notice it and I’ll sit with you through that discomfort.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
Alright, and just to follow up on that a little bit, bonus question I guess, but I take it you’re not suggesting that parents don’t try to help your kids. You’re mainly saying first though, make sure that they know you’re there with you and you understand how they’re feeling before then you address practically what you might need to do. Am I kind of inferring you correctly here?

Ara Macaren (10:44):
Yeah, I think that’s a good question and I think I get what you’re saying of like, okay, I’m just supposed to sit there and let them suffer and no,

Speaker 3 (10:54):
I figured pretty much not knowing you,

Ara Macaren (10:58):
But I think oftentimes we go straight to fixing it. And this is something I noticed with my own clients as well. We are avoiding these sticky, icky feelings. So we feel guilty as a parent that I am leaving my child without their parent and to fix it, I’m going to try to get them to buy them a new iPad and give them a limited ice cream and take them to all the play dates that they want. And we’re operating in that space of guilt and shame. And so what I’m saying is what if we try something else? What if we just say, this sucks. I’m sad too. You’re sad, it’s okay. And then little by little, when we allow people to feel their feelings, they’re often able to regulate themselves. And I can tell you what I need, and I see this with teenagers more often than not, right?

Ara Macaren (12:04):
Oh, I don’t want to feel sad. Oh, I need to be strong for my parent. Oh no, you’re allowed to be sad. And then once we accept it, and there’s this thing that says if you name it, you contain it, right? Once we can name what we’re feeling, we can do something about it. But the first step I think is that connection that, hey, I see you and it sounds, I even have sometimes parents who are like, but that’s it. That’s all I do. Yes, for the beginning that’s all you can do. And you’d be surprised the power of connection and vulnerability and the present moment with that child and then you can start getting proactive. But I think the most important part is not my child is suffering, let me quickly do something about it and get him something and throw him a party. It’s more, Hey, I noticed that you’re upset. This is upsetting, let’s talk about it and then we can do something about it. Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (13:02):
It makes a lot of sense and it’s just, I can tell you, being the father of two children not going through a divorce, it’s pretty effective method in dealing with an upset for me younger son or daughter. Anyway, it does make a lot of sense to me. And when we were talking about doing this, we wanted to leave people with some, I guess, more proactive things that they can take away and do right now if they have a loved one going through this with their children tell their loved one to do. And what are your tips?

Ara Macaren (13:41):
Okay, so I guess the first one would be, and it’s actually exactly what we’ve been talking about, be there for them. Do not attempt to fix. So I think that’s the overall message of how do I show up for my child that is present, that is connected, that it’s secure. A lot of kids, like we were saying, there’s going to be some changes. Sometimes kids, especially younger ones regress in their behaviors. So for example, they might be potty trained and all of a sudden you’re noticing that they’re not that doing that well anymore or they’re trying new foods and now they want to go back to that. Or they’re used to sleeping by themselves and now they want to sleep with you. So all of these things are very common and expected. So it’s just you noticing them and affirming them and validating them. I think that is really important.

Ara Macaren (14:36):
And that’s where I’m saying let’s not attempt to go into fixer mode right away. Let’s focus on, hey, I know this is going to come change. We were saying it is inevitable and my child is going to experience. I always like the metaphor of the ocean. There’s different waves, so there’s going to be bigger waves, smaller waves, and I know that I’m in the ocean right now, so all I need is to securely tell my child, we’re in the ocean, let’s ride the wave together. So I think that would be my number one recommendation of things that you could do right now. The second one, and I talked about this briefly, was to establish limits and boundaries. So again, if we have guilt and shame and what is this going to cause my child and I’m a bad parent and I’m causing my child pain, so I’m going to be really permissive and let them do whatever they want and let them get away with anything totally understandable where that’s coming from.

Ara Macaren (15:41):
Again, we’re operating in that kind of space a little bit, but I think when we set boundaries and limits, we become predictable. And that is so important for a child having a routine. Hey, I know that Mondays and Wednesdays I go to dad’s and I know that at 4:00 PM I have a snack and at 5:00 PM we do this. Being consistent is really important. Again, we’re going to see that wave of behaviors and there’s going to be maybe some more tantrums and maybe I’m going to try to push and not shower for three days, but how do I maintain this routine and consistency? Because when so much of it is changing, I think it’s very important for parents to be predictable and reliable. We go back to securely attached. When I’m safe, I’m predictable. I can’t tell you enough how many of my clients say, I don’t know what’s going to happen.

Ara Macaren (16:38):
I dunno how mom’s going to react. I dunno how dad’s going to react. And it causes anxiety at the minimum. So anything that we can do to implement this routine, and it gets really hard, especially when there’s two households and there is something to say about that. I’m not ignoring that part at all. And sometimes we have parents that want to collaborate and parents that are not interested. So to that, we focus back on what is in my control. At least if we have a difficult co-parenting situation in my household, I will be safe, I will be predictable, I will be approachable. So I think that’s the second one. Try to keep the routine and be as predictable as possible.

Ara Macaren (17:28):
The third one is, I’ve heard this quote before and I absolutely love it. And it says, the more people that love your kids, the better. So back to my bubble, I love metaphors, I love analogies. That’s kind of how my brain is wired. But how can I add a more protective and bubble to my children if the person is safe? This does not apply to domestic abuse, narcissistic, we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about safety connections. It could be a grandma, it could be a friend, it could be a teacher, it could be a coach. But the more people that your kid knows are there for them and the more people that love them and care for them, the better off you’ll be. I always tell parents, add more bubbles, add more layers because when the time comes, they’re going to have a huge bubble that protects them.

Ara Macaren (18:26):
Like we were saying, change is inevitable. Things happen to all of us, but I’d rather have a kid that has seven bubbles, that has two. So how do I more love to the life of my child? I think that’s something that we can do. And as many securely attached adults that the child has, the better. Especially if let’s say we’re dealing with a blended family situation and we’ve determined that the child is safe, that other partner is safe again, that’s very important. We’re not talking about people that have other stuff going on, but safe adults. Sometimes it’s hard as parents, I don’t want my child to develop a good relationship with stepmom or stepdad, but if we operate in that lens of the more people that love my kid, the better. I’m not necessarily super comfortable and I don’t love it. And that’s why you have your friends or your buddies that you could call and rely on, but at least you’re adding more bubbles to your child’s life. Again, the big asterisk is make sure that these people are safe people.

Ara Macaren (19:35):
The fourth one would be time in time. So it’s kind of different than timeout. Time in is time where I am actually spending time with my child. So I think sometimes adults are busy, they have their own responsibilities, they’re going through their own process of grief and loss. So how can I establish a time in time, maybe if it’s a four year old, maybe let’s build Legos together. Maybe we can go spend some time at the park or the pool or maybe we can cook something together or spend some time in nature. But you’re actively timing in, so you’re not on your phone, you’re not on your earbuds having a meeting while spending time with them. You’re very intentional about that time in. And I think that’s something that most parents are like, but I don’t have an hour. It’s okay, five minutes. That’s okay.

Ara Macaren (20:36):
We don’t need three hours of spending time. I understand parents have lives, adult lives and complicated stuff going on, especially through this divorce process. But how can I devote five minutes of intentional uninterrupted time with my child? And then fifth one, I think it’s super important that saying you can’t pour from an empty cup. So focus on your own psychological wellbeing. It is okay for you to be experiencing all the sticky, icky feelings that come with divorce. You’re not selfish for asking for help. You’re not selfish for seeking psychological help. It doesn’t make you a bad parent. It doesn’t make you less than in fact, and this is something that I teach my clients all the time, asking for help and being vulnerable. That is strength, that is courage. Hiding, pretending, not acknowledging. That’s not the true definition in my opinion of somebody courageous when I have a client crying in front of me and saying I’m hurting. That is bravery, just acknowledging. So a good parent models asking for help models, Hey, I need some support. Okay, so I think the fifth one, and I think it’s really important, even though they’re not in any order of importance, but let me take care of my own needs. Maybe mom needs one hour of time with friends, maybe dad needs to go golfing every Sunday. I don’t know. But dedicate your own time I think is also very important.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
Those, I mean I think amazing, just practical tips that take a little bit of consciousness but not a whole lot of time with most of them to do. And I hope the people listening to this realize that will divorce might be hard. There’s a couple of things that aren’t that hard to actually do, or at least in time commitment that can make a huge difference in kids. So thank you for sharing those things.

Ara Macaren (22:49):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s what you’re saying is so right. It’s a lot to work with. You don’t expect perfection. Please don’t ever expect to be the perfect parent. I do not know one, they do not exist. They’re mythical creatures. It’s you’re a human doing some human things and they’re hard things and sometimes, like I said, a hundred percent looks different on a Monday and it does on a Wednesday, and that is okay,

Speaker 3 (23:19):
I feel a little bit excused. I try to be the best stop here I can be, but it’s not always perfect, but I feel like at least I’m trying. So it’s going to be validated a little.

Ara Macaren (23:29):
I think trying is all that you need

Speaker 3 (23:35):
I guess on a slightly different subject, others, sometimes the other parent doesn’t try as hard or has a different mindset. Maybe in some instances they have one of these personality disorders or traits of one. What’s your best advice for people when their spouse or former spouse just seem to effectively co-parent? What do they do in those situations?

Ara Macaren (24:08):
And I think those are almost the hardest cases, right? Because we want to be these protective forces for our children and sometimes that’s not necessarily in our control and we’re dealing with people that aren’t willing to be part of this collaborative parenting process. So that is already a mission, right? Divorce is already a mission in and of itself, and then you add this difficult layer to it. So definitely hard and I want to give space for that. I think there’s different layers and components to this. First failure is not a bad thing. So if a parent fails to show up, what is in your control as a parent, so you’re not a bad parent and there’s always room for growth in these new dynamics. So I think that’s the first clue what is in my control? How can I be the securely attached person? How can I implement time in time?

Ara Macaren (25:12):
How can I maybe include the coach or the art teacher to add more layers to this child? Especially because I’m dealing with this by myself. That’s the first thing. The second thing is maybe the child. I feel like sometimes parents try to compensate, right? Like, oh, it’s okay, they’re feeling bad that their dad or mom isn’t available. Let’s talk about it with them. Instead of just assuming and making our own process, he should do this or she should be doing this. It’s more, okay, what are this child needs, right? Because what I really recommend kind of like the don’ts of this situation is as an adult that this parent is not the best, but your child does not know that. And this child is 50% that other partner. So by you bashing, which is called parent alienation, by you talking bad about this other parent, by you saying that this parent is unreliable, untrustworthy mean among other things, that child is thinking 50% of me is bad.

Ara Macaren (26:25):
So I think that’s the number one key thing. You are an adult. You are privy to information that the child is not so protect that attachment with that other parent to the best of your ability. They are allowed to love this other. It is part of who they are. And you can shield them from, Hey, dad’s not going to be here, but he loves you, dad loves you so much, right? Mom really appreciates you. So how do I provide a secure attachment but also not alienate my child from 50% of the parent? Again, we want to keep them safe. So maybe you won’t have access to this parent because this parent is going through X, Y, Z that makes them unavailable. But that doesn’t mean that this parent doesn’t love you, doesn’t care about you, isn’t thinking about you. So how do you maintain this attachment to this parent? So I think the number one thing to think about is this child is going to need to be attached to this parent. I cannot really, I encourage try not to and salt or bash, I know it’s so hard because you see the truth of that person, but that doesn’t mean your five-year-old child needs to. And I think a good question to ask yourself that I’ve heard before, is it kind, is it necessary? Is it true?

Ara Macaren (27:59):
Kind of like your go-to question. If I’m going to say something about mom, am I going to say something about dad? Is it kind? Is it necessary? Is it true? What will my child benefit from this? Is there a benefit for me sharing that he didn’t pay college tuition? Is there really a point to saying that he’s addicted, right? It depends also in the developmental stage, but I think being honest and saying, Hey, this is hard, dad, mom is gone. But also adding that security, but they love you. They love being your dad, they love being your mom. That’s the best way to be. Again, we go back to are you going to be perfect about this? No, you’re dealing with, chances are if you’re in this situation, you’re dealing with a really complicated person. So it is going to be hard. But again, we’re thinking in this case, how do I shield my child? How do I add more layers of bubble? And I think that’s the best way to do it. And at the end, if we alienate our children from their other parent, it’s really, really harmful. And in some places it might even be considered abuse because we’re neglecting a part of that child. So is it hard? Yes. And I always am honest with parents, with even the kids, does this suck? Yes. Is it going to be complicated? Absolutely. Are you going to be perfect? No, but I think it’s worth the try.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
That makes a lot of sense. I mean it seems like what might be a lot of people’s reaction when their other co-parent is just not in alignment to maybe speak out against them with the child. That would kind of undercut a lot of this attachment type stuff that we’re talking about that the children can benefit from as they’re going through this stuff. So I don’t think it in maybe with regards to what you were saying, is it necessary? It’s probably never going to actually help anything. So I say it, I guess.

Ara Macaren (30:14):
Yeah, I think that’s a good rule of thumb. And I like how you thought about necessary because if you ask yourself those three questions, most of the time the answer is no. Right? And that’s not to say that you can totally bash your ex with your friends or whoever is your trusted person. Absolutely right. Let that out. And that’s what we were saying, it’s okay to feel this frustration and this anger, but just not with your seven year old, not even with your 15 year old. That’s not okay to do. We want to protect them and shield them from that with that emphasis of how do I securely provide the support from my child?

Speaker 3 (30:57):
A lot of the people that I meet that are thinking about going through divorce and they have kids or people sometimes that know other people that are going to be doing the same thing. They often wonder in the beginning, how do do they with their partner tell the children? And I thought you’d be a perfect person to ask that question too, just based on how you help a pretty wide range of kids navigate life changes. So I mean just from your perspective, any advice you can share on how ideally to tell children about divorce would just be amazing, I think for our audience here.

Ara Macaren (31:41):
So maybe I could answer that as the do’s and don’ts.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
That would probably be good.

Ara Macaren (31:47):
So I think the first thing to do is just be simple about it and I think honest. So what does that mean? Simple means I’m not going to give you this really long explanation and tell you I’ve just been really sad and he did it with the secretary. And because of that, we’re not going into these long explanations, but we’re also being honest. So what does that look like? I get sometimes people are like, but you’re telling me to be honest, but not to disclose I’m confused. Where’s the line? So I think honest is mom and dad think it’s better to go our separate ways. That’s honest and it’s simple. I’m not telling you all these explanations. I’m not saying mom did this that did this. So I think simple and honest is the best key. Also, children don’t really need this whole explanation as to why.

Ara Macaren (32:47):
I think the second do, I guess is kind of provide that space. I feel some children have anger right away. They want to place blame, they want to throw things. That happened to one of my clients, they went into this kind of rage state. Okay. So just providing that space to listen. I think like we were saying, providing that and allowing them, they get to fall apart about this. They get to be upset that their family is no longer going to look that way. So I think allowing that, again, what we were saying about children thinking it’s all about them. So reassuring them this is not your fault. There’s nothing you could have done. Mom and dad love you the same, right? We think you’re amazing, you are wonderful. You and your sister, you and your brother are great, right? This has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with you.

Ara Macaren (33:50):
I think that is really, really important. There’s a book, it’s actually a workbook that is called, let me see if I can remember because it gives you specific, it’s called the Co-Parenting Handbook by Karen Bonnell. And she gives you specific ways to answer difficult questions. So for example, why can’t you guys get back together? Or do you still love mom or do you still love dad? Or what was the real reason? Or did somebody have an affair? So children get curious. So I think the do’s is definitely try to be honest and simple with those answers and then just be there for them and allow them. And instead of answering the questions, be like, Hey, I’m noticing you’re curious about this. Is there something I can do to address that? I think that’s kind of like the do’s and then the don’ts is kind what we were saying.

Ara Macaren (34:53):
Poison that other parent, blame this person. Be overly disclosing of what you are going through. You don’t need to try to fix everything and let me do this and let you do that. It’s a hard situation for everybody, but how do we kind of navigate that together? So simply put, if you’re going to have that conversation, be honest about it. Be simple and be there. The simple do not is do not talk badly about that other parent. Do not argue and debate in front of that child as to what we’re doing. And if you have to have this conversation solo and have the conversation solo and allow for any questions that come up.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
I think that’s all amazing advice. And I really just hope a lot of people take to heart what you’re saying here. And I mean look, the divorce process, there’s probably easier things to go through in life, but there are things you can do to limit the impact that it does have on your children. And this stuff, when done right, it can work and make it something that I believe families can recover from. So thank you for sharing all of this with us and for people that are listening to this and resonating with what you’re saying, maybe you could just talk for a little bit again on your private practice. How do people find you so that if they’re in the areas where you can be licensed to serve ’em, that they can reach out to you and have you help them or their children through this type of stuff?

Ara Macaren (36:41):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you again for just having me, giving me the space to talk about this. Like I said, I’m really passionate about it and I think the more that we talk about it, we remove the shame of it and we give parents tools to give to their children. So like I said, I’m part of a group practice. It’s called Home for Balance Psychotherapy Group. So we have our website, we have our Instagram, I have my own personal Instagram, which is called Rising Stronger Counseling. People reach out to me there all the time. I can give you my phone number or my email address or we can put it on the comments. It’s up to you. Sure,

Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yeah, we’ll get it up. But if you have your main number offhand and the website you’d like, that’ll be helpful. And we’ll of course display it at the beginning and end of this too.

Ara Macaren (37:30):
Sure. So the best number to reach me or text me is 5 8 5 0 6 6 3 3. And like I said, you can just text or call that number and the website for balance website. Well

Speaker 3 (37:45):
That is perfect and thank you so much for taking the time to share all of this stuff. I truly feel that divorce can when right, have a positive impact on a family altogether. And the stuff that you’re talking about makes it a lot easier for the children to ultimately have a healthy place, albeit in two separate homes to where they can grow up hopefully into wonderful adults that have close relationships with both of their parents. And I couldn’t think of anything more important when it comes to this area of society and making it better for the future. So thank you for all of your tips and for taking the time to share your advice here with everyone.

Ara Macaren (38:35):
Absolutely. Thank you.

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