Chris Bruce:
Hi, everyone. My name is Christopher Bruce. I’m a divorce attorney in South Florida. Today, I have the pleasure of being joined by Phil and Viktoriya. Phil Treiber, he’s a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Florida, and Viktoriya Chiliy, she’s a marriage and family therapist, and they’re both with Dude Breathe Counseling in Boca Raton. And I had really just a pleasure of working with Phil, or getting to kind of see Phil in action, and then meet Viktoriya when they presented recently to a group of local therapists on just a fascinating presentation about men’s issues. So it was awesome that they took the time to come on here, and I’m excited to talk to them about a couple of things related to making your relationship with your husband better.
But before we get into that, maybe Phil and Viktoriya, just give us a background of yourselves, how you came to do this stuff, and then we’ll get into it.
Phil Treiber:
Sure. Yeah. Well, Chris, thank you for asking us to do this. Any opportunity that I have or that we have to talk about men’s issues and to discuss the work that we do, because it’s actually quite unique, we’re always grateful for that opportunity.
So yes, I’m a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Florida, and about two years ago, I opened up my private practice, Dude Breathe Counseling, which is a specialty group practice that specializes really with working with men at the individual couples and family level. So I do a lot of the individual work. Viktoriya does individual, but she really specializes in the couples and the family stuff, right?
Because one of the things that I saw in this area, and really kind of nationwide, is that there really aren’t specific practices that are geared towards working with men specifically, and I think that that was a major area that was really being left out. And I’m a firm believer that if we focus on the pain of men and the unique struggles that they have, then we potentially wouldn’t face a lot of the other problems that our society is facing.
Chris Bruce:
Well, wow, that’s awesome. And as was a recent presentation of yours that I watched, and I mean, Phil, it was about three hours long. I think you probably could have went all day if the-
Phil Treiber:
Yeah.
Chris Bruce:
… group gave you the runway, but you covered… I thought it was pretty fascinating to hear as a lawyer representing mostly women in divorce cases, you kind of explained over a couple hours of interesting theory you have. It seemed pretty rational to me about how there’s a lot of men that are mistaken for being a narcissist, especially kind of in today’s society, where that’s started to turn into a buzzword a little more than it used to be. And maybe if a little bit different approach was taken with those men, people wouldn’t be calling them or signing them those labels. And I know we don’t have the three hours or maybe the full day that you could do on this, but maybe just give me the gist of this. I think it would be useful to a lot of the people that I come across, especially the women married to some of these men, and maybe it can give them a different viewpoint of things.
Phil Treiber:
Of course. Yeah, you’re right. I need a long, long time on that one, right? Because my presentation was covering the basics of men’s issues, our developmental as well as our societal expectations for men, and how we’re raised as boys and how that transfers up into men. But that presentation specifically was geared towards really looking at narcissism, as well as gaslighting from that men’s issues lens, right?
And it’s going to be difficult to do this, but I’m going to give it a shot. But you’re right though, the word narcissists and the term gaslighting, these things are thrown around left and right with actually no understanding of exactly what these things are, right? To be someone to be actually diagnosed or to be a full narcissist, they have to meet very specific criteria from the DSM-5, which is like our bible of the mental health disorders. And they’re very specific, right? Because the whole idea is that we see this grouping of symptoms that presents in a specific way, therefore we put a name to it, right? But anytime that a guy shows his inability to admit that he’s wrong or not expressing feelings or coming off as cold or trying to be controlling, narcissist, right? But it’s not accurate, right?
So in my presentation, I went out on a limb, just from my own research and my own understanding of these things, and I come to the conclusion that most men really are not narcissists. There are a host of unique problems that we suffer from, right? Such as normative male alexithymia, which is not being able to literally, due to brain connections, identify the feelings and the emotions in our bodies. Which then if when we do experience these emotions and feelings, they are extremely confusing, they are extremely uncomfortable, because, one, we don’t know what they are, two, we don’t know what to do with them appropriately, right, and then three, we are taught by society that we’re not supposed to have them, and if we do have them, there is something wrong with us.
So part of what that looks like is a very normative, statistically, expression and presentation for men. What happens is we look towards trying to control the external world, because if I can’t control what’s happening on inside of me, if I manage this, I manage that, if I not admit fault, if my boss only did this, if my partner only did this, if my kids only did this and I can control these external factors, then I maybe won’t experience what I’m experiencing inside and then I’ll be okay, right?
But the problem is is that a lot of those tactics or unhealthy coping skills or mechanisms that these guys are employing are going to appear as if they’re trying to manipulate and control and be narcissistic, but at the root of the problem, it’s not a full-blown personality disorder such as narcissism, it’s just the man struggling with men’s issues that’s going to show up as a narcissist. I think that’s the best way that I can really describe it is that he might appear narcissistic, but at the core and the root of the problem, it’s not a personality disorder, it’s just a man struggling with emotions and feelings and then not knowing what to do with it in an appropriate way.
Chris Bruce:
Gotcha. And you did a great job of summing that up.
Phil Treiber:
Thank you.
Chris Bruce:
You must have practiced that one.
Phil Treiber:
I didn’t.
Chris Bruce:
Yeah. You must know what you’re talking about.
Phil Treiber:
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Bruce:
So this one could be for either of you, but kind of to take a next step with that, where do most women, in your all’s opinion, go wrong trying to improve the relationship with their husbands?
Viktoriya Chiliy:
So I’ll start with this one. So I’m Viktoriya Chiliy. I’m the family marriage therapist at Dude Breathe.
My work really began with this population of men was when I was working with a lot of divorce cases. So sometimes I would actually see an entire family in my office. And I had found that through a series of enough therapy, these men were actually coming to some of these conclusions that Phil was talking about where, “Hey, maybe I need some help.” But unfortunately, when they had come to those conclusions, a lot of times it was at the midst of the divorce, at the midst of different domestic violence or different things that have occurred within the family. And so I found myself with a lot of empathy and compassion towards the men, because I saw their struggle. And these weren’t dads who didn’t want to be in relationship with their kids, they were dads who just simply didn’t have the tools.
So naturally, me and Phil, we had a connection as far as our passion for this topic, and so we have created a space for that. And I think that though we service a lot of men, we also invite the women to have these conversations, as you’re doing so perfectly on this podcast, where we’re really inviting the women to reflect about what happened within the marriage and where maybe on her end, things maybe were not fully met as far as the expectations that she had going in.
So I think to answer your question, where did the woman go wrong improving the relationship with the husband is I think one of the biggest things that I see is that women oftentimes don’t express their needs. That’s a huge thing I see. And again, going to what Phil just said about the men wanting to control and wanting to kind of make sure that things are running smoothly, the women kind of fall within the pattern, and the suppressed needs of women is a huge thing.
And then along with that, the misunderstanding of the psychology of men, where there actually might not be that full-blown narcissistic personality disorder. Maybe it’s just the fact that this is the way that all the men in this particular case, as far as family goes, generational speaking, have dealt with family problems or have been the man that they’ve been told to be in the relationship, and so they just don’t know any different. So that is part of the other misconception that I see.
And then the other thing is is that men are just not typically wired to sit there and talk about their feelings with their significant other. That’s just not something that a society has told them is normal, and so they don’t really do that. They go out and play basketball and whatever else they decide to do with their guys, but they’re not actually talking about the problems going on inside their marriage.
Chris Bruce:
And maybe it’s just exactly that that gets a lot of women into my office to meet with myself or our lawyers where they start thinking about a divorce and they start to feel disconnected. For those women that are listening to this, that they’re kind of on the fence, they would like to see things get better with their husband and they haven’t been able to do it, I mean, what’s your best advice for those women to try to improve their marriage through counseling with you all or another great one in the area?
Phil Treiber:
So when it comes down to what women can do is that usually in the relationship, the dynamic of the communication isn’t there, right? A lot of men have never been taught the skillset to communicate. This is a big generational component, right, that comes from our great-grandfathers to our grandfathers to our fathers, and then we were raised to just repeat what they know, right? Men are not supposed to have needs. John Wayne is not going to go to his partner and say like, “Hey, I’m feeling insecure. I need a hug. I need some more validation.” It’s not going to happen. So the thing is is that when I work with guys individually, it’s really about installing this idea of emotional intelligence into them so that they actually can engage in that environment, right?
But the other side, and really what the work that Viktoriya can really do with clients, is that the female partners have potentially tried to express themselves to their male partners, but the men were not in a receiving type of state or they weren’t open to hearing feedback, they get defensive. If they get feedback of, “Hey, you’re not meeting this need,” then there’s something wrong with me as a man, as opposed to approaching it from like, “Hey, okay, I’m falling a little short. I have to come forward a little bit.”
So it’s the work that we do to help these guys be open to hearing that feedback and then being able to take that feedback and also really empowering the partner to ask for her needs to be met. And then for them to actually go out on a weekly basis in between couple sessions to do the homework that Viktoriya gives them, so they can work on these things actively and not just coming in once a week and just like, “Hey, let’s talk about it,” as opposed to not actually applying it in their real lives.
Viktoriya Chiliy:
To add to that-
Chris Bruce:
Makes a lot of sense, especially the… Yeah, I’d love to hear your perspective.
Viktoriya Chiliy:
To add to that, before you respond, Chris, is it also does not negate for the women to go to therapy and start doing the work as well, even if it’s just individually. I think that’s a big misconception that women think, “Well, unless we’re going to couples therapy, unless we’re there together, that nothing is going to get done.” That’s not actually true because a lot of times in her coming and exploring her own dynamic within the family, she’s actually able to conceptualize what might be the issue.
Sometimes it’s not inherently his issue, it’s actually a couple’s issue. Sometimes it’s actually her issue that might be impacting him in the relationship. Sometimes it’s not either of them. Sometimes it’s the kids and it’s the kids that are really putting a lot of pressure on the marriage and then the marriage is just kind of crumbling because maybe they have a child that has significant needs or whatever else that might be going on that’s really putting pressure on the family.
So a lot of the family therapy entails is actually exploring what is the actual problem that’s going on, because we cannot just play the blame game. And what we would call that in therapy is really we would be looking for what’s happening within the relationship between them. And naturally, of course, the men issues would probably possibly be there, but we cannot say it is inherently a him issue, which is another thing that we come across as well.
Chris Bruce:
That makes a lot of sense to me, and as does the giving, well, really, both people, especially the men, kind of just some practical kind of homework and stuff, skills to try to start using. It seems natural to me, as somebody that tries to continually try to master skills, but I guess I’m probably speaking for a lot of the men out there, it seems to be what you’re saying.
Phil Treiber:
Right. I mean, that’s the thing is men need homework, right? We are very logical, tactical, figuring things out, right? If for me, it’s like if I give a guy an assignment in session, I’m going to explain to him why I’m giving it to him and how it could potentially help him. I’m not just going to hand him something and be like, “All right, man, good luck with it.” I want buy-in. I want them to understand that this uncomfortable, potentially difficult thing that I’m asking them to do for themselves is going to help them get to where they want to be, right? So that’s why that’s the reason for the homework and other things like that.
Viktoriya Chiliy:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:16:42].
Chris Bruce:
Well, I mean, it just sounds like from what you both are saying, for the women that are watching this that really want to improve their relationship with their husbands, well, couples counseling is important and it sounds like it can be a really important component of that. It really sounds like their husbands might make a lot of gains in the relationship if they see somebody just for them, at least for a while, maybe even before the couples counseling starts.
Viktoriya Chiliy:
Right.
Chris Bruce:
So when the efforts to improve the relationship don’t work and that don’t appear to be gaining any ground, for the women listening to this who they realize or come to the decision that they want to get divorced or end the relationship if they’re not married, do either of you have any tips for how to best approach their husband or how to deal with the situation with the man in their life to have the separation be as amicable as possible with hopefully as few ill feelings and nastiness between the people going forward? Basically, how do they make it amicable as everybody tries to say they want?
Viktoriya Chiliy:
So I’ll kick this one off. So with the amicable part, I kind of want to address the kids first, because a lot of times these couples are already having kids together or maybe it’s from previous marriages. And the idea that I want to present to either party who’s listening is really the kids. The kids really do come first. And oftentimes I will see that one parent or the other, sometimes both, will put the kids into what we call a loyalty bind. So that means something like mom telling the daughter or son things about dad and vice versa. So the kids really just get so confused and they don’t know actually what is going on.
So part of that would be something that I would strongly encourage is don’t put your kids into the middle. Really go and find either a therapist or somebody else that you could speak to about this where you’re not essentially vomiting all over your kids. And if your partner is doing that, then encourage the same for him to do the same and just stop any sort of conflict in front of the kids.
The other thing I would say is really explore the possibility of having an authentic conversation between the two of you where you’re actually sitting down, like adults, and actually being able to express, okay, what is it that’s going on with both sides. Because I think what also I’ve seen a lot of is where couples, they don’t actually communicate. They have a screaming match, they slam a bunch of doors, and then the marriage ends, and then you’re like, “What actually happened?” There is no… Everyone kind of has their subjective view as to the relationship ended, okay, but there was no actual conversation, and then the next thing you know it is there’s a divorce that was filed the next day.
So if possible, really try to not do that and actually have that conversation, or if it does happen, then actually try to revisit that the next day and say, “Okay, here’s this ugly fight that we had. Can we talk about it before we proceed with any kind of legal matters?” Those would be some of the two things that come off the top of my mind for me that I wanted to express.
Phil Treiber:
Yeah, for me, it comes down to the kids that when I am working with one of my guys, and of course there’s one side, there’s the other side, and then there’s the truth in the middle, right? So when I hear one of my guys saying, “She’s talking trash to me to the kids. She’s triangulating me against the kids,” they’re being used as pawns in a divorce or some type of power struggle, there is nothing more that pisses me off more than hearing that, because it is something that is so petty, so resentfully fueled, so incredibly selfish to put these young people, whether they’re teenagers when they’re… They’re figuring out their own identities in social situations, let alone children. And having them have to pick between two of their primary caregivers or to trash the other to the other one, regardless of what happened, right?
One of the most powerful tools that I have with my guys when it comes down to their unhealthy behavior, whether it’s drinking, affairs, whatever it is like that, right, is that one of the biggest things that I ask them is like, “Okay, who taught you that this was okay?” And over some time, it gets like, “My father did this,” or, “My mother did this to my father,” et cetera, et cetera, right? And the thing is, as kids, we repeat what we know, right? These generational patterns get followed. So the thing is that one of the things I’ve seen with my guys who are going through a brutal divorce, they went through a brutal divorce as a kid in the beginning. So it’s just going to repeat this pattern over and over and over again.
So when I talk to the guys about, “Hey, man, you realize that your kids are seeing everything. They’re like little sponges, right? Are you okay with them going to be repeating this in the future? Are you okay with the fact that they’re going to have to go through the same process and sit on my couch or Viktoriya’s couch in the future? Are you okay with that?” Right? That’s part of the leverage that I can have with these guys and be like, “All right, man, do you care about your kids? Do you really want the best for them? So then stop playing these games, dude. Let her, let him play this game. You be that higher person. You really mimic and model what you want your kids to do in the future.”
But that’s such a common thing. And kids are so egocentric, that especially when they’re younger, because they have to be for their development, when parents get divorced, one of the first question that the kids ask themselves is, “What did I do wrong?”
Viktoriya Chiliy:
Very true.
Phil Treiber:
Did mom and dad not love me? Don’t do this. I won’t do this anymore. I won’t do that. Right? And when they start getting these conflicting messages from parents, it’s just going to completely tear them up inside to where it’s almost going to be inevitable that they don’t have a healthy, well life and will have to come see a therapist if they actually ever do get to do that.
Chris Bruce:
Sounds like some damn good advice to me, and you’re talking your future self 30 years out of the road out of some business maybe, but I guess that’s what we’re all trying to do is make… I think that’s why all of us are doing this. We want to make the world a better place through what we do, and I mean, yeah, the people have the issues to get it to us, but if we can do something that causes at least fewer of the people to be doing this in the next generation that comes after us, I think the world’s going to be a hell of a lot better of a place, but that’s at least what goes on in my mind.
And Phil and Viktoriya, for the people that are listening to this where this is really resonating with them and they think that maybe y’all could be of help to them for the men or for the women to their husbands, maybe even the family really in general, maybe if y’all could talk a little bit about your practice, who you all see, how you all break up helping on the different types of issues, and help people understand how to get in touch with y’all.
Phil Treiber:
Sure. So I’ll talk about the major basic stuff, right? The biggest thing is just if you Google Dude Breathe South Florida, right, there’s nothing else that’s going to come up, right? So the website is dudebreathecounseling.com. There’s information on me, all my credentials, information on Viktoriya, as well as all the different things that we individually specialize in or we specialize in as a practice. But really what it comes down to is that going to the website, right, finding us on Psychology Today. My individual Instagram is @DudeBreatheCounseling, where I talk a lot about these things. I have different reels.
One of the biggest aspects, before I let Viktoriya speak about the couples and family work that she does, is that I try to make it such an inviting environment for these guys, because again, therapy is enemy territory for men, right? We’re expected to talk about our feelings, our emotions, be vulnerable, everything that we have been taught not to do our entire lives.
So I hear from guys frequently, “Hey, man, my wife or my girlfriend has been sending me your reels for six months. I’ve had your business card on my desk for a year.” And most of the time they’re reaching out when the house is burning down, right? She’s got one foot out the door, she just served me the papers. I got a DUI. I just got fired, right? I’m thinking about harming myself, whatever it is, and these guys give me a call, right?
But then also I speak to a lot of the women initially as well, right, to where it’s like, hey, they reach out to me. I get a little bit of a background on them. I’m like, “Great, cool. Here’s Viktoriya.” And then that’s where she really picks it up much more from the couples and the family work.
Viktoriya Chiliy:
Thank you, Phil. Yes. I wanted to add a couple things from the earlier question. I think that there might be somebody listening or a couple listening that’s just like, “We cannot even be in the same room to have a five minute conversation. We’re five minutes in already fighting.” Don’t feel like you have to do that alone. There is divorce counseling. So you could actually come in and actually have that uncomfortable conversation with the help of a therapist.
And I’ve actually done those sessions where I’ve invited two parents who could not be in the same room together, to actually break the news to their kids of the divorce. That’s not something that I encourage for everyone. The hope is that you guys could do that at home together, and we don’t have to do that. But if that’s the only way you could see actually being able to have that conversation where you’re not villainizing each other and also really making it hard on the kids, that is an approach.
So don’t feel like you are out of options, and really be able to reach out to us, because we are here to really support you. And sometimes just providing you with psychoeducation, which is really what a lot of what Phil was talking about, you might actually have a change of heart towards your husband as far as his stances and how he’s showing up.
And the other hope that you might find is is that I have personally found in my clinical work that a lot of men, they might not do stuff for your relationship, but they will do just about anything for the kids. And if that means going to therapy, they will come to therapy because they don’t want their kids to be caught up in the conflict. So that’s good news for you moms out there for you to be able to really maybe pull on that if that’s the last resort that you have to get him to come to therapy and really talk about him and his kids. And if that’s where he’s at, then that’s a great place to start.
Along with my work, yes, on the website, and we are here, we also do support groups for men. We run them on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and we both run them. I love the fact that we are able to provide every service you need, the individual, the couples, the family, so you don’t feel like you’re not getting your need met. Really, we’re trying to provide a full encompassing family assessment, so to speak, whether it’s for you, for him, or for the kids. So I think that wraps it up for me.
Phil Treiber:
Yeah, I think-
Chris Bruce:
I know… Go ahead.
Phil Treiber:
No, the other side of it, I forgot, on my website, there’s a free 16-page PDF that actually does go in and describe some of the socialization and developmental process that we go through men, on top of empirically proven ways of speaking to your male partner about getting into therapy, right? It’s completely free. It’s empirically proven stuff, et cetera. So that’s another great resource for women or other male partners to talking about their son, their husband, their fiance, their boyfriend, about coming into therapy that might help them broach the subject a little bit to be able to have these guys actually feel a little bit more comfortable to actually reaching out to us.
Chris Bruce:
Gotcha. And I think I was telling you all my firm recently, well, maybe we were in the process of opening a Boca office when we last spoke, but we’re down there now and some of our clients are in that area. But do you all do the video or telehealth type therapy for those that wanted if they’re in different parts of the state, might have a little trouble getting to your office?
Phil Treiber:
Absolutely.
Chris Bruce:
I figured as much. Well, Phil, Viktoriya, thank you for taking the time to do this. I can just tell everybody listening to this, I’ve had a chance to get to know them both, see Phil in action. I’ll probably be seeing Viktoriya speaking before too much longer here on something soon.
And if you’re looking to improve the relationship with your husband or even unconsciously decouple from him, especially if there’s kids, I really encourage you to seek out Dude Breathe Counseling. Phil and Viktoriya know what they’re talking about, and they have a really special interest in connecting with men and the family for what is, in my view, often misunderstood issues with men.
So, Phil, Viktoriya, thank you so much for taking the time here.
Viktoriya Chiliy:
Thank you for having us.
Phil Treiber:
Yeah, absolutely. It was our pleasure. Thank you very much.
