Victoria Mccooey – What Every Woman Needs to Know When Divorcing a Narcissist


 

Below is the transcription of this interview with Transformation Coach, Victoria Mccooey. For more information about Victoria Mccooey please click here.

Transcript from Interview

Christopher Bruce: Hi everyone. My name’s Christopher Bruce. I’m a Florida divorce lawyer, and today I have the pleasure of being joined by Victoria McCooey. Victoria is a transformation coach, and a lot of what she specializes in is helping women divorce a narcissistic-type spouse. I just thought it would be really interesting to hear from somebody who works with women going through this very challenging change, and discuss a couple of things that might give some inspiration to our listeners as to how to approach a divorce from a really controlling, difficult-to-deal-with, a narcissistic-type husband. So Victoria, thanks so much for joining us.

Victoria McCooey: Thank you so much for having me.

Christopher Bruce: Maybe just tell everyone a little bit about who you are, what a transformational coach is, a little bit about what you do, and then we’ll kind of get in to the topic here.

Victoria McCooey: Right, so I’m a life coach specializing in major life transformations. My specialty, my niche is helping women, and now some men-

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: Yeah, divorce a narcissistic or controlling or otherwise abusive spouse, because it’s a very specific type of divorce.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: My background is, of course I had my own horrific long, drawn-out, six-year divorce from a very narcissistic spouse. But then after I got my footing, I started doing volunteer work for the Coalition Against Domestic Violence where I live, and I really got addicted to giving back, to this helping other people who were going through what I went through. I did it for years, and I was trained to become the advocate who would be on call when a domestic violence victim presented at a hospital. I would go to coach them into undoing some of the brain washing that had been done to help them see other possibilities and other alternatives versus returning to the abuser.

Christopher Bruce: Wow, it’s heavy stuff, and I know we’ve spoken before we did this. You definitely have heavy experience in going through this type of a thing, which is kind of, you feel like at times, an insurmountable challenge, but it doesn’t have to be that way, and that’s kind of why we’re talking about some of this stuff.

Victoria McCooey: It’s also important for people to realize they’re not alone. I know when I was going through my abusive marriage, I didn’t think anyone else would ever understand or be able to even believe the things that were going on, and I was so humiliated by it and embarrassed, that I didn’t tell anyone. So I think the more we talk about it, the more like people are to reach out for help.

Christopher Bruce: I’m so glad you brought that up. So many people that I meet in my practice as a divorce lawyer, they kind of think at times they’re the only one going through the issue, and there must be something wrong with them, because why would this be happening if it weren’t their fault. I’m glad you really pointed that out.

Christopher Bruce: I guess just so we know, maybe what we’re talking about here, there’s a lot of references, especially in pop culture to what is a narcissist, or you’re a narcissist this and that, but how would you define this type of person that’s the problem that we’re dealing with here?
Victoria McCooey: Well, it’s getting thrown around a lot, especially now, but it’s a very hard diagnosis to make. Even top psychiatrists who are experts in this field are very hesitant to label someone as a narcissist, so I certainly do not pretend to be able to tell you if you’re… I get asked daily, “Is my husband a narcissist?” And here’s what I say: “Does it really matter?” It’s a spectrum, and if he is doing abusive behaviors, it’s a pattern of abusive behaviors, and if you are feeling controlled or minimized or not good enough because of the way you’re being treated, then he’s too far on the spectrum to be healthy for you. Everybody’s boundaries are different.

Victoria McCooey: There might be somebody who, their husband is a full-blown narcissist, but they don’t let it in and it doesn’t bother them. It doesn’t really matter if they’re labeled that way or not. What’s the effect that it’s having on you?

Christopher Bruce: That makes a lot of sense. It really doesn’t matter who the person is. It’s just moving on from a difficult and controlling person, I think, is kind of the real what we’re talking about.

Victoria McCooey: Right.

Christopher Bruce: So I guess as somebody’s approaching a divorce from a difficult person, maybe a narcissistic-type spouse or a partner, I mean this applies whether it’s divorce, a marriage or not. What do you typically see the abuser doing once they’re kind of put on notice of, “Hey, I’m divorcing you,” or, “I’m leaving you.” What do you typically see happen with these people?

Victoria McCooey: Well, a narcissist or anyone who’s far on that end of the spectrum, their biggest fear is abandonment.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: Typically in their lives somewhere they experienced some type of abandonment. Maybe it wasn’t physically abandoned by a parent, but emotionally abandoned. Somehow this has created this dysfunction in them where they’re so fearful of being abandoned that they cannot take that, they see it as a huge blow to their ego.

Christopher Bruce: Wow.

Victoria McCooey: So if they think that you’re leaving them, or know that they’re leaving them, you must be punished, because you’ve done the ultimate harm to them, the unthinkable, the unimaginable, the thing they fear the most, and you’re doing it to them. So there’s huge retaliation involved.

Victoria McCooey: The first thing I usually see is the flying monkeys, right?

Christopher Bruce: What is that?

Victoria McCooey: They start a smear campaign against you, because first of all, their ego is huge. They cannot possibly, as hard as it is for them to acknowledge that you’re leaving them, they certainly can’t stand the thought of other people knowing this, that you would leave them, that they’re so perfect. They can’t be seen as anything but perfect.
Christopher Bruce: Yes.
Victoria McCooey: Now they have to paint you as flawed because they can’t possibly… It can’t be them. So now there’s a huge campaign to smear everything about you, your personality, there’s a flaw in you. In my own case, my ex-husband immediately called all of our friends and told them… Oh, by the way, ultimately he choked me and that’s when I called the police and he was arrested.

Victoria McCooey: So in order to make this not go away, that I had made this whole story up and it didn’t happen, he called everyone we knew and told them that my father had raped me as a child. He made up this weird story, and that I was so psychologically damaged that I made up this whole story. I mean, so far-fetched, right?

Christopher Bruce: That’s just…

Victoria McCooey: Dirty pool. I mean, it’s like they’ll do or say anything to elevate themselves. I didn’t even know this was going on. He wasn’t in the house any longer, so I’m getting calls from… I don’t know how many people he called. I only know the ones who reached out to me and said, “He’s calling, saying this, and we don’t care if this happened to you. We still love you.” I’m like, “It never happened.” So maybe there are people out there who still believe, who I didn’t even know were told. Expect the worst.

Victoria McCooey: So we call them Flying Monkeys because you know, in The Wizard of Oz, the witch has flying monkeys who go do her dirty work. Well this is what he’s doing. He’s trying to paint this picture of you as the bad guy, so he can be the victim, and now all these people are doing his work for him, like saying to you, “Well, you know, you really shouldn’t have…” or, “You really should be more considerate of his feelings…” or whatever he’s saying. So they’re all out there working for him against you. So that’s why they’re called Flying Monkeys.

Christopher Bruce: Wow, that makes a lot of sense. I just see it a lot with these types of people in a divorce. They definitely enlist an army, and sometimes I just tell my clients to expect… “It’s going to feel like opposite day.” The opposite of, it sounds so silly to say that, but it’s so ridiculous, but it’s true. It’s things that are just completely untrue are being said. I mean, I know what I tell people, but when you work with your clients in your coaching practice, do you have any particular advice to them on, “Okay, this might be coming. How might you handle it or expect to deal with it?”

Victoria McCooey: Right. So you can’t stop, right? You can’t control him. But in fact the more you try to make him stop, the more he will do it, because now he knows it’s pressing your buttons, it’s really [inaudible 00:10:21] you. The more you show that this is a problem for you, the more it’ll happen.

Victoria McCooey: So we come up with some language that they can use in these scenarios. For most people I suggest when someone says, “Oh, your husband told me…” you know, whatever outlandish lie, and you go, “He did? And you believed him?” Like you know, we’re not going to look like, “He said what? And you believed him?” Like own that this is crazy. Don’t get defensive. Like, “What? I never did…” then it’s just like a he said/she said. But if you just… It’s so absurd to you that it just bounces off of you and you go, “He said that and you believed him?” Like, “How crazy.”

Victoria McCooey: So it makes you feel more empowered I think than to try and defend yourself, you know? Just make them start questioning who’s telling them the truth.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah, I think that’s good advice. That’s generally what I say. I mean, generally I tell people, “Don’t call and go on the offensive and listing your own Flying Monkey brigade,” so to speak. I’ve never used the word Flying Monkey until now. I think that might be a good one for me to work in, but I think that’s really good advice. I think we both know this isn’t the only thing our respective clients are typically dealing with when they’re separating from a difficult person like this. What else do you see these narcissistic-type people doing?

Victoria McCooey: So they’re so damaged that they can’t stand the idea of you’re leaving, right?

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: But at the same time, while they’re begging you to stay because they have to hurt you for leaving, so it’s this crazy dichotomy. At the same time they’re begging you to stay and doing everything they can to push you away. I tell my clients, I call this Scotch Tape Effect, because if you take a piece of Scotch tape and you tear it down the middle, you know how it’ll just keep going and going?

Christopher Bruce: Oh, yeah.

Victoria McCooey: This is what they’re like. They’re going in two different directions forever and ever and ever and ever, and there’s no end. They’ll do just the most horrific, awful, like what my husband said about me, horrifying things to you, and then they’ll not understand why you’re leaving and say, “How can you leave? Don’t do this. Stay.” Then why would you do that?

Christopher Bruce: Yeah, exactly.

Victoria McCooey: That’s what I see a lot of times.

Christopher Bruce: Just dealing with my clients, especially our female clients that are dealing with this, it’s amazing this stuff they hear. One thing I hear a lot of, obviously we always treat it seriously, but we prepare our clients for this, even to the extent of suicide threats and things of that nature, which obviously you have to be sensitive about, but just when you work with your clients, what are some of the tips you might have to dealing with this confusing circumstances and happenstance.

Victoria McCooey: I see this all the time, threatening suicide. You know, I’m not going to say this never happens, people don’t, but in my experience people who tell you they’re going to kill themselves are not serious about killing themselves.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: So it’s a tactic. It’s working on your empathy. You have to start separating emotionally, mentally, physically, financially. That’s how I help them break away and start seeing themselves as a separate entity, not in [crosstalk 00:14:18].

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: And that is his problem. You can’t fix him. It’s not your job to try.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: It was maybe, but you’re separating now, and he’s a grownup. These are his issues, and he needs to figure that out, and it’s not only not your job, you can’t. You can’t fix him.

Christopher Bruce: So I think from some of our talks, you dealt with this in particular, but I’m sure a lot of the people that are contemplating divorce from somebody like this might feel in a sense trapped in the relationship a little bit because of children. Obviously we all want the best or our kids. Maybe you can speak a little bit to what you see happening with children in these types of separations, and maybe a couple of ways to try and minimize the effect.

Victoria McCooey: Right. Well first of all, this is a toxic environment you’re living in, and your children are in it too. Just think about how sick you feel all the time. This kind of constant abuse, whether it’s controlled verbal abuse, financial abuse, whatever it is, it’s insidious, and it’s never-ending. There’s no relief. It’s 24/7. You’re living in this toxic environment.

Victoria McCooey: I remember at the height of my horrible dysfunctional marriage, a contractor came in, he was a friend of ours, to do some work, and he said, “You can cut the tension in here with a knife.”

Christopher Bruce: Wow.

Victoria McCooey: Other people feel it. Nobody had said anything. So your children, it’s like raising them in a house with carbon monoxide poisoning.

Christopher Bruce: Wow, yeah.

Victoria McCooey: It’s affecting [crosstalk 00:16:16]. I know you know these women are sick, they’ve got migraines, they get fibromyalgia.

Christopher Bruce: Oh yeah.

Victoria McCooey: They have IBS. They have all these symptoms, and doctors just throw these labels on them because you don’t know what it is. It’s stress. It’s the stress of the situation. Our bodies aren’t made to withstand that level of stress for that long. We’re just animals, and we go into fight or flight, and then when the predator leaves, we go back to… You’re supposed to go back to normal. We’re never going back to normal.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: We’re sustaining that fight or flight feeling and chemistry in our bodies forever 24/7, and it breaks down our systems and we get sick. So this is happening to your children too. They are feeling it. As much as you might try to hide it from them, it’s in the air. It is there. It’s tangible.

Victoria McCooey: So do you want to keep your children in this carbon monoxide-filled home, or do you want to go through a difficult period with them, but then give them the opportunity to see what a happy, healthy household feels like?

Christopher Bruce: Yeah. That’s what I bring up with a lot of my clients. If you’re at least giving them a chance to see something else, and obviously they’re going to have influence from both of their parents, and there’s a part of them that will always be developed based on some of the things they have seen in their other parent, but if you don’t get them out of that environment for at least a portion of the time, they’re never going to see anything else. And I’m not a child psychologist, but that’s just… I know you aren’t either, but that’s the reality of it as I see it.

Victoria McCooey: I’m the poster child for this because I stayed. I had three little kids. I stayed because they were boys. I thought they needed their father. I knew how hard he was going to make it. I knew he would use them as pawns. I knew what would happen, but eventually obviously the abuse got so untenable that I had to do it, and I should have done it way before, because yes, it was very hard for a short amount of time, but you can never create that healthy environment while that person’s in the house with you.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: It’s impossible. You cannot, because he’s infiltrating it. The only hope you have of giving them healthy environment is creating it separately, and yes they will go back and forth, but guess what? They’re going to feel what this is like and they’re going to feel what that’s like, and they’re going to make their choices, and they’re going to gravitate to the place that feels safe and normal and honest and happy.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: Not the drama, the chaos, the crazy, so they’ll figure it out. When kids grow up, they start getting the joke.

Christopher Bruce: I think you’re right. I don’t know if you share the same experiences with some of your clients, but I see a lot of people who will wait to get divorced or wait to separate from somebody that’s a difficult, abusive type of a person because they think when their kids are adults that they’re just going to somehow be out of the picture, but with what I see, you know, the kids still end up, even as adults, being roped into this, becoming one of the potential Flying Monkeys as you’re calling them.

Christopher Bruce: From what I’m see, unless they’re in their last year of high school or something is generally they’re going to be part of it no matter what. Waiting might very well, probably is doing more harm than good.

Victoria McCooey: There is never a good time to get divorced.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: I think from what I’ve seen, the younger they are, the better, the more time they have to adapt.

Christopher Bruce: I think you’re right. Do you have any particular advice for people who might have younger kids that are about to go through with this as to how they might prepare themselves to deal with their children when their spouse is probably going to act the way we’re talking about?

Victoria McCooey: Well, the spouse will necessarily bring them into it because they can’t help themselves. Narcissists are entitled, they’re grandiose, the rules don’t apply to them. They’ll tell you you better not use the children as pawns, you better not engage the children, you better not talk to the children, but believe me, they’re going to do it.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: I mean, my children were six, eight, and 10 when our divorce started, so they were old enough to ask questions, and they were definitely alienated from me. When they would come back after a weekend at dad’s and they would come home to me Monday nights after school, I don’t know if I can say the A word, we called it Asshole Night because they were horrible to me. They had been drinking the Kool-Aid all weekend, and I was the enemy, I was the villain. So this is real, this happens, and then it would take them a day to get back to their normal selves.

Victoria McCooey: When they would confront me, and this is the advice I give my clients with a lie, “Dad said blah, blah, blah,” I’d say, “Well, that’s not true,” and if they would question, “Why would I believe you?” And you would say, “One of us is not telling you the truth and it’s up to you to figure out who that is.”

Christopher Bruce: That’s good advice.

Victoria McCooey: Yeah. It’s a way not to disparage dad. It’s like, don’t say, “Dad’s a liar.” Don’t say, “Dad’s using…” just like, “Well, that’s not true. That’s not the way I see it. We can’t both be telling you the truth. I’m saying this is true, and Dad’s saying this is true. One of us is not telling you the truth.”

Christopher Bruce: I think that’s great advice. From what we’ve talked about, I know you’re really proud of your children and really close to them now as they’re adults. I’ve seen the same with my clients. This stuff does pass with time. The kids come around. I think a lot of the people listening to this shouldn’t be scared off about putting themselves first, and their life change first worried the kids will never recover.

Victoria McCooey: It’s the example, the quintessential example of put your own oxygen mask on first.
Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: You cannot possibly save your children if you don’t save yourself first in this scenario.

Christopher Bruce: So we’ve talked a little bit about the kids. So then there’s the whole part about you’re getting divorced, you had a couple legal issues on top of what’s already a hard process, how’s all that stuff go. I know I have my thoughts as a divorce lawyer, but just based on what you’ve seen doing what you do, how do these rascals behave once you get them in the court system?

Victoria McCooey: Well, their typical selves. They’re grandiose. They like to be the center of attention. They’re very charismatic. They can be very charming. They’re very manipulative. They’ve very smart typically. They can manipulate the system. So my advice to my clients is always this: you have to create the contrast because the judge sees so many… He doesn’t remember you, or she doesn’t remember you from one time to the next. Or not everybody goes in front of a judge, but even the other lawyer.

Victoria McCooey: You have to be your best self when you present in court. You have to be polite, reserved, poised, respectful, and you let him hang himself, right? At first he will win everybody over. He’ll make himself look to be the good guy, because he’ll lie, they have no problem, they are great liars. They will point fingers at you, very dramatic, like all the grandiosity, but if you’re consistent, consistent, consistent, at some point he will show his true colors.

Victoria McCooey: If you react, if he makes some outrageous claim, and you start flailing your arms and being dramatic back, the court doesn’t see the difference. It’s like, “Oh, they’re the same person,” right?
Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: There’s no difference.

Christopher Bruce: I don’t know [crosstalk 00:25:19]. Go ahead.

Victoria McCooey: No, no, no.

Christopher Bruce: I was just going to say when it comes to dealing with these people in the court system, I’m curious as to your thoughts on this, but just, I’m a board certified divorce lawyer in Florida, and I’m supposed to follow what they call the bounds of advocacy, and one of the major tenements of that is minimizing litigation, taking every opportunity to resolve a case so that conflict isn’t exaggerated, especially with families, but I very much feel most of the time when it comes to dealing with these types of people that those types of tenements of working everything out and extending the olive branch almost make it worse off for my clients than if they had just been, I hate to use the word aggressive, maybe the word direct is better, but direct in understanding this is somebody that is likely never going to come to the table, and negotiating with them is kind of like negotiating with a terrorist-

Victoria McCooey: Absolutely.

Christopher Bruce: You just have to keep focused on getting it over. I don’t know how you see it with the people that you work through. They’re working with these lawyers through these situations.

Victoria McCooey: Do you know, every one is different. Every single case is different, but typically narcissists or people who have narcissistic tendencies aren’t going to settle because it’s not in their vocabulary. It’s a zero sum game to them. It’s like, “I win or I lose,” they have to win. And winning means you get nothing because they’re entitled. They think they deserve everything. There’s no compromise or give and take or negotiation. It’s just all me. It’s really hard to settle with these people.

Victoria McCooey: I usually try to help my clients psychologically by helping them let go of the outcome of the divorce, because these things can go on for years. I mean, mine was six years.

Christopher Bruce: That’s a little longer than most. Usually not that bad.

Victoria McCooey: But it’s going to be a year. You think it’s going to be cut and dry. I thought mine was open and closed, like the guy choked me, please, like this is going to be over tomorrow. Six years of fighting. He contested the divorce, and it was a long time ago, and New York was not a no fault state. I had to prove [crosstalk 00:27:49], so it was ridiculous. Anyway, those kind of things don’t happen anymore.

Victoria McCooey: But I would help them let go of the outcome so that they can start living their life, because you can just get derailed by this divorce, worrying about what that outcome is going to be before you can start your life. So I try to help them let go of that and say, “Hey, we’re going to hope for this and try for this, work toward that, but if we get this, all you have to do is figure out a way to fill that gap.” It’s not a zero sum game. It’s not like, “Oh, I lost.” You didn’t lose. Here’s where you landed, so let’s start preparing for how you’re going to fill that gap, whatever that gap is now.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah, that makes sense. I guess maybe a few people who are listening to this haven’t so much heard of a transformational-type coach. How does working with you or somebody like you benefit somebody that’s getting ready to go through a divorce or a separation from a toxic individual?

Victoria McCooey: Well, because I’m not just a divorce coach… Divorce coaches will guide you through the process, help you with paperwork, those type of things, this is a more holistic coaching experience, right? I am looking at the whole person and not just the divorce piece of it. I’m getting you in the best physical, spiritual, financial, emotional shape I can so that you can get through this at your highest level.

Victoria McCooey: It’s going to be war. You have to be in training. You have to get into the best shape you can to be able to deal with this and be quick on your feet and not let this derail you, not let it make you sick, which happens. I can’t tell you how many clients came to me really sick from the stress of it. In order to put it in a compartment and deal with the rest of your life and where you want that to be, and try to see this divorce as a springboard that’s going to catapult you into this new life that you deserve, that your kids deserve to have, we’re focusing on how to get there dealing with this, but it’s not our life. It’s just a piece that has to be dealt with, but really focusing on where we want to go.

Christopher Bruce: So just in terms of timing for the people that see one of these divorces or separations on her horizon, when ideally is the best time to start working with you, and in your view to start working with an attorney as they approach all of these things?

Victoria McCooey: I always hope somebody comes to me before they hire an attorney, because they can take a lot of precautions, they can do a lot of work, they can get their hands on a lot of information and documents that they may lose access to.

Christopher Bruce: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Victoria McCooey: So I want to help them get access to what they can, take some precautions to safeguard some things that might go missing, get some security so that they can’t be found out what they’re doing, take those kinds of precautions, and then I help them find the right attorney too.

Victoria McCooey: My clients are all over the country. Our coaching is by phone or Zoom, and I may not know personally the attorneys in their area, I can help them do some research, but I can help them ask the right questions, and come back to me and shift through it and help coach them into a decision for who the right attorney might be.

Christopher Bruce: I think that makes sense. I guess just from your perspective, how do you view when they should be telling their narcissistic or controlling type of husband that they intend to get divorced in relation to when they’re working with you and the attorney? It think we know the answer, but maybe it’s a good thing for you to talk about here briefly.

Victoria McCooey: Yeah, that is so specific, right?

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Victoria McCooey: You want to give a blanket major? My knee jerk reaction is that it should be a sneak attack because you don’t want to give them the opening to do a lot of damage. But you know, that’s not in every case. It depends.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah, I think every case is different, but that’s generally what I tell people. You probably do not want to be telling a controlling or manipulative type of a spouse in most circumstances that you intend to divorce them, because then they will start to control and manipulate before you are prepared to go through with what is going to very likely going to be a difficult process. So the more notice I see these types of people have, the harder sometimes it can become, but I think every case is different.

Christopher Bruce: So I guess we’re here with Victoria McCooey, and she’s a transformational coach that specializes mostly in working with women divorcing controlling-type husbands, but a few other things too.
Victoria McCooey: And some men.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah, yeah, that’s right. There are narcissist women, or narcissistic-type women out there, so this is kind of generalized to what is most common, but it does come up on both ends. But people are listening to this and they think, you know what, you would be probably really helpful, and they’d like to reach out and work with you, how do they go about doing that and what is working with you [crosstalk 00:33:57].

Victoria McCooey: Yes, well every coaching client starts with a free call. That’s our first step. You can do that right on my website, which is just my name VictoriaMcCooey.com. There’s a button you’ll see, “Free session.” You get on my calendar, and we have a chat, and we get to know each other. I find out what your situation is, and I figure out if you are in a place where I can help you, and then if I think we’re a good fit, then I’ll tell you about the different ways I work with my clients.

Victoria McCooey: It’s not just one program. You know, I have different levels of support for really contentious, serious things. Others are more of a do it yourself with check-ins with me, different budgets. It’s not a one-size-fits-all. It’s a couple of different levels, and we take it from there.

Christopher Bruce: And I guess just before we go, I think you have a few videos on similar topics to what we’re going over here on [crosstalk 00:35:05].

Victoria McCooey: I do. I have a lot of videos. There’s a lot of free content on YouTube. Again, my channel is just my name. If you just search on YouTube, Victoria McCooey. The name of the program is Reclaim Your Power. There are a ton of videos that are there for you for free.

Christopher Bruce: Well, it’s been awesome having a chance to talk. You really are kind of an internet celebrity of sorts on this topic, so it’s pretty cool to talk here. Again, this has been a talk with Victoria McCooey, a transformational coach, specializing in divorces from difficult people, men and women. And my name’s Christopher Bruce. I’m a divorce lawyer mostly down here in South Florida. Like Victoria, I have a few resources on my website that are free, one of which is a book that you can download called How to Divorce Your Controlling, Manipulative, Narcissistic Husband, so get a little, a few laughs every now and then with the title, but you can get that at our website: BrucePA.com, and maybe Victoria, you can just say your website one more time.

Victoria McCooey: Yeah, VictoriaMcCooey.com.

Christopher Bruce: All righty, well thank you everyone. What?

Victoria McCooey: If you go there, there’s also a free gift you can download as well, which is call The Five Things Every Woman Needs to Know When Divorcing a Narcissist.

Christopher Bruce: Well, awesome, and I think we’ll end with that. Thank you very much, Victoria.

Victoria McCooey: Thanks, Chris.