In this interview, Dr. Staci Weiner and I discuss how to navigate through a divorce when you have a child on the autism spectrum. Divorce always brings instability, which can cause children to feel very anxious. If that child is struggling with mental illness, especially autism or sensory issues, the impact can be even worse. We discuss the strategies that can help suppress the psychological impacts of divorce on children.
Christopher R. Bruce [00:07]
Hi, everyone, my name is attorney Christopher Bruce and welcome to the podcast. Today we’re going to be with Staci Weiner. She’s a licensed psychologist in Florida and New York, the owner of Apple Psychological. We’re going to be talking about a very important topic which is navigating divorce with a child on the spectrum. So, Stacey, thank you so much for joining. Being part of this, taking time from your day to be here and, you know, if you don’t mind, just tell the listeners and viewers a little bit about your background and experience so that we can then get into this stuff.
Dr. Staci Weiner [00:40]
Sure. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. So My name is Dr. Staci Weiner. I’m a licensed clinical psychologist as well as a certified school psychologist. And I have experienced experience working with all different types of children, adolescents, adults, families, couples. And I’ve had extensive experience working with kids on the spectrum. And those experiences were in schools. They were as part of my private practice, which has been Apple Psychological, which has been around for 20 years, since 2005. So I have seen many families who have a child on the autism spectrum and I really find it very rewarding to help educate people, whether it’s parents or siblings or employers.
Dr. Staci Weiner [01:34]
Just about what does it mean to be on the autism spectrum and how does that affect a child or a person’s perception and the way that they see the world? Because it’s in. It’s very different from how neurotypical people see the world. The other way that I was working with people on the spectrum is through my job as an expert psychologist for Robson Forensic. So specifically I worked on many cases with attorneys where a child or an adult was abused in some way or had some sort of traumatic experience. And so unfortunately, very often we find that could happen with kids who are, who have disabilities, specifically developmental and intellectual disabilities. And I find it very important to understand those nuances about how those kids and adults are impacted in terms of the trauma and how it can be viewed.
Dr. Staci Weiner [02:43]
And also a very different experience for those people as opposed to the neurotypical population, since I think there’s a lot.
Christopher R. Bruce [02:53]
Of different people that will be watching this. Some will be parents, some might be relatives, some might be, you know, people. So maybe we can start from the top. What does it mean for a child to be on the spectrum?
Dr. Staci Weiner [03:07]
Yeah, so being on the spectrum, it’s a developmental disability. And very often those children or, and, or adults, they show difficulty with understanding social cues, with nonverbal behavior. They’re often very Rigid in terms of their routines and their expectations. They do not like change or disruptions in their life. So their routine’s very important to them. People on the spectrum also have difficulty with relationships, making friends, maintaining relationships and things of the sort. They often have specific interests, something that, you know, that they love, that they stick to and perseverate on a lot. And that could be difficult for parents, for people around them to understand and help them cope with life. They have a lot of challenges in processing and expressing their emotions. And as I was saying before about trauma, they experience things in a very different way.
Dr. Staci Weiner [04:20]
And often their inability to express themselves can come out in certain behaviors, like tantrums or aggressive behaviors or it’s what we call stimming or repetitive statements. So there’s many different ways they can get very sensory overloaded. So if there’s too much information that’s coming in at one time, they can just. Their brain just can’t handle that and that’s when we see the behaviors come out. So that’s just some of the what it’s like to be on the spectrum. Yeah.
Christopher R. Bruce [04:55]
In a moment we’ll get to, okay, parents are separating or getting divorced with a child on the spectrum. But I mean, just from your experience and the clinicians that you work with and working with children, which I know is a great deal, how does divorce or separation of parents typically affect just a child in general?
Dr. Staci Weiner [05:16]
Yeah, I mean, so many things that I’m going to be talking about today really are good practices for kids on the spectrum and also neurotypical kids. It’s just that as I mentioned before about the challenges of kids on the spectrum, we really need to be especially careful and mindful of what we’re saying to kids, how we’re presenting the information and really understanding their behaviors and knowing what to look for.
Christopher R. Bruce [05:44]
So how does a typical child deal with their parents separating or divorced? What are kind of the basics that really any child’s going to experience in that process?
Dr. Staci Weiner [05:54]
Yeah, so first of all, it depends on the child. Right. It’s really, it varies from person to person. There are some kids that go with the flow and they’re, you know, able to accept change more readily. There are other kids who are really rely on their routines and in order to feel safe. So it’s a spectrum in terms of the neurotypical population as well. But I would say that in general, kids can be confused. They can be anxious because they don’t know what to expect and they might not understand the reasoning behind the divorce or the separation. They could blame themselves for the divorce. So that’s something that’s really important to explore and talk to kids about. And they also can feel put in between.
Dr. Staci Weiner [06:47]
And this is what I found in my experience with working with kids whose parents are going through a divorce. You know, most often kids are loyal to both parents. They, you know, except in, obviously there are certain situations where that’s not true. But typically they love both their parents. They want both their parents to love them. And when you have two people who are contentious, you know, they see maybe mom not liking dad or is saying negative things about dad and they might have a feeling about that, or maybe one parent asks them about the other parent and they want to please their parents. So there’s a lot of conflict there between, you know, wanting to please the parent and also not wanting to go against the other parents.
Dr. Staci Weiner [07:35]
So I, and I think even the most well meaning parents, we’re all human, right? And we all have our emotions. So I think it’s important to just be mindful again of what you’re saying to children and understanding that they love both the parents and you know, that they’re going to have a hard time hearing negative things about the other partner. Saying anything negative about the other partner.
Christopher R. Bruce [07:59]
Well, it sounds like from what you’re saying, that divorce can be challenging in differing ways for really just about any child. A lot of care has to go into how parents react and deal with their kids during the divorce process. But what about for kids on the spectrum? How is the divorce and separation process a little bit different for them?
Dr. Staci Weiner [08:22]
Yeah. So as I mentioned before, in terms of kids being on the spectrum and their challenges, they often have difficulty processing information and expressing their feelings. That makes it difficult to talk about it. Right. And sometimes the response that they have is not the typical response that you might think that a child would have. For example, sometimes kids on the spectrum might just act aloof or unaffected and kind of just shut down. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are not affected. It just could mean they don’t know how to interpret the situation. That’s their response. Also, as I mentioned, they, you know, many kids on the spectrum had difficulty with change and disruption in their schedule. And we know that with divorce comes changes in living arrangements, you know, custody schedules, daily routines being disrupted.
Dr. Staci Weiner [09:19]
That can really result in heightened stress and anxiety for a child on the spectrum in particular. And just to say something about, you know, my experience, I have had parents who of course Take it personally if, let’s say, a child doesn’t want to come to their house and sleep over and they say, well, why don’t they want to see me? And it’s important to understand if a child is on the spectrum and they have to go to a different house and pack their clothes and sleep in a different bed and in the morning, everything is different for them. Like, for a typical child, that might not be an issue. They might just say, okay, I have my stuff, it’s fine. But for a kid on the spectrum, each little change is highly stressful for them.
Dr. Staci Weiner [10:13]
So they might not choose to come to one parent or go to the other parent just because of the change and the rigidity in those routines, not because of how they feel about the parents. And I feel like that’s a misconception. That happens a lot. And then they might make their child feel like guilty or put pressure on them to come see them.
Christopher R. Bruce [10:36]
I’ve seen that play out more than a handful of times. And it’s a tricky issue to deal with. And it’s really. It takes a parent that’s pretty in touch with their child to not be affected by that. From my family’s time getting to know you, I not. I know you’re not somebody to just highlight issues without giving some practical strategies to deal with them. So let’s go through some of that. And where it, I think it usually starts is okay. A parent, or ideally parents have jointly decided that, you know, the marriage is going to end or the relationship’s going to end. And there does come a time to where, you know, their child has to be told about that. And I know it can depend on the age of the child and some of the circumstances.
Christopher R. Bruce [11:24]
But do you have any best practices for parents telling a child that is or might be on the spectrum about the divorce and what’s going to be involved with it?
Dr. Staci Weiner [11:34]
Absolutely. So first, we want to make sure that we use clear and concise language. And many kids on the spectrum have difficulty with actual abstract reasoning. So saying something like we just grew apart, or, you know, we’re not, we don’t want to be together anymore, or something like that will be very difficult for a child on the spectrum to really grasp and understand. So saying something else such as, you know, mom and dad will be living in different houses, but we still both love you and we’re both going to be taking care of you would be a much clear way and much a better way for them to understand what is happening there’s also something called social stories where I can get. I can get into that after and talk about an example of that.
Christopher R. Bruce [12:20]
I think that might be helpful. How can the social stories, I guess, of approach or method help with, you know, teaching a spectrum child or talking to a spectrum child about their parents? Divorce?
Dr. Staci Weiner [12:33]
Yeah. I’m going to give an example of a social story that could be used. It’s really a short story that you’re telling your child and it’s giving them the words to define what is happening and even helping them to label their emotions and just get a better understanding of what to expect. So a social story might be, my parents are getting divorced. What is happening? Sometimes parents decide to live in different houses. This is called divorce. My parents are getting divorced, which means they will not live together anymore. Even though they will live in different houses, they both love me very much. What will change? I will have two homes, one with mom and one with dad. I might spend time with each parent on different days.
Dr. Staci Weiner [13:21]
There will be a schedule to help me know where I will be, what will stay the same. Even though my parents will live in different places, they will always love me. I will still go to school and do my favorite activities. I will still see both parents, and I will still have my favorite toys or books or routines. How might I feel? It’s okay to feel sad, confused, angry, or worried about the changes. If I feel upset, I can talk to mom and dad or another adult. I can use my emotion chart to show how I feel. An emotion chart is almost like a pie chart that has different emotions in it.
Dr. Staci Weiner [13:59]
So often kids can just pick which emotions, and they can pick more than one emotion, if that’s applicable, Then that helps them to label how they might be feeling at the time. I can take deep breaths or use my fidget toy, or I can ask questions if I’m confused. It’s okay to have questions. If I’m unsure about something, I can ask and my parents will explain to me. Divorce is a big change, but I am loved and safe.
Christopher R. Bruce [14:24]
That makes a lot of sense.
Dr. Staci Weiner [14:26]
So some other strategies to help kids understand the divorce process is to maintain consistency. So trying to keep those routines as stable as possible, even in different households. And that’s challenging, as we know with our clients, because different people have different ways that they want to discipline, that they want to keep the house, what rules that they want to have for their children. But it’s really important, especially for kids on the spectrum, to have that consistency. In both homes, using visual supports is sometimes helpful. Having them Use a schedule and understanding exactly like when. When’s Mom’s day, when’s Dad’s day? What do I need? Instead of just like, I don’t know what’s going to be happening. Right. There’s a lot of anxiety associated with that.
Dr. Staci Weiner [15:18]
Instead of, you know, okay, now I understand where I’m going in every moment of the day, providing and direct explanations. So again, we don’t want to use that abstract language. We want to be straightforward about what exactly is happening. Validating your feelings, understanding if the child is sad or they’re angry or they don’t want to make the change or they want their parents to stay together. Right. That’s totally normal, too. And that’s with typical kids and also kids on the spectrum and, you know, work for parents to be working with therapists and the support system and for everybody to be in communication about what, you know, what the child is experiencing, what their challenges are and the best way to help them.
Christopher R. Bruce [16:04]
Now, when it comes to the routine, and I’ve heard so much about this both from, you know, individuals in the mental health field such as yourself, and, you know, the parents of a child on the spectrum, is there a, like, a best practice for when the child’s going to that new home? Maybe with the parent that might not have been involved, we can say with the father, although it’s the other way around, you know, less involved historically, parent out there that might be listening to this. Is there a best practice for trying to make the first few times their child comes into the home as successful as possible in laying a foundation for a healthy visitation schedule as the divorce starts to fade?
Dr. Staci Weiner [16:50]
Sure. I would say we want to make sure that the child has a space of their own, if possible, and also is able to bring some of their toys or things that they love if they’re very little, like a blanket or a stuffed toy that they like as a transitional object to bring to the other home and maybe also having the child’s input in what that space would look like and sort of making. Making it an exciting thing. Right. Like, what do you want your new space to look like? Let’s decorate it together so that they feel like really this is a home and it’s not a foreign place that they have to go to. The more familiarity that they have, the better, the more comfortable that they feel.
Christopher R. Bruce [17:34]
Now, Stacey, one of the things I wanted to ask you about is how does the role of a really good therapist play a part in helping a child on the spectrum adjust to the separation of their parents.
Dr. Staci Weiner [17:46]
Yeah, therapist is extremely important to kids, to any child going through divorce because even if two parents are well meaning, loving, want to do what’s best, they’re still not objective in the situation. Right. So therapist provides a safe space where the child can feel free to talk about whatever they want to talk about. If they want to say something negative about a parent, positive about a parent, they can feel free to do so in that environment. It’s also a consistent environment. I actually had a child on the spectrum that I was seeing for a few years and he was, we moved my office actually and he was very upset about that. Also another time I changed the date that he was seeing me. So he came at, you know, 7:00pm on Wednesdays.
Dr. Staci Weiner [18:42]
Well, I was like, well I have a meeting next Wednesday, so we’re going to do Tuesday. That was a big problem. So the very sensitive to those, as I said, routines and schedules and place. So in general, therapy environment is a safe space where they can communicate freely. And also therapy helps kids to communicate with their parents as well. The therapist can serve as a liaison between the child and the parent. If the child feels like too embarrassed or ashamed or is afraid that they’re going to make their parent upset, therapist can really help facilitate that communication, which is really important because a lot of times kids are holding in their feelings and they have a lot to say, but they just don’t know how to say it or they’re afraid to say it for whatever reason.
Dr. Staci Weiner [19:40]
And that can affect everything. It can affect their behavior, it could affect even physical effects, you know, stomach aches, headaches. So it could affect their sleeping and eating patterns. So it’s really makes a very big difference when they have that liaison and that person that can help them communicate their feelings.
Christopher R. Bruce [20:00]
It makes a lot of sense to me. And I mean, I just know from, you know, my clients that have gotten a really good therapist involved. If the child hasn’t had one already in the divorce process, especially you know, the children that need extra attention, including the spectrum children, it really can make the process I guess at least a little bit smoother for really the entire family. So thank you for explaining that one and doing the work that you do. Now. What about the parents in this? You know, I know in your practice, some of your clinicians work with the parents, you know, also how, what are your best tips for them to balance the needs of their, their children, but also their own as they go through the divorce process, which isn’t exactly just simple for them either.
Dr. Staci Weiner [20:46]
And it’s really tough. It’s really tough for parents. And the first thing I think that I would recommend is for parents to have their own therapists. They can communicate their feelings freely and have that space. And again, so they’re not holding things in which then come out in ways that they don’t want them to come out. So let, for example, yelling at their kids or not having a lot of patience or not understand. Understanding what their kids are going through. So having that therapist is really helpful for parents. Being mindful. Being really mindful of ourselves when we’re getting angry, when we’re getting sad, and being able to recognize and recognize that within ourselves really helps when we’re working with our kids, because we don’t want to be communicating with our kids.
Dr. Staci Weiner [21:38]
When we’re super angry or, you know, really upset about something, right. Our brain is not really thinking clearly at that time. So it’s important to know, like, okay, this is not the best time to deal with this. I need. I need a timeout, right? I need to take a break until I’m in a better space, and then I can talk to my child about what’s happening or what we need to get through.
Christopher R. Bruce [22:03]
They need to hear the. The help of the people that are watching this.
Dr. Staci Weiner [22:06]
This is.
Christopher R. Bruce [22:06]
It doesn’t matter how we do this. We could be upside down and it’s gon, you know, help them, or at least that’s how I consume this stuff when it’s something I need. But. All right, so I’ll ask this question. So Staci, or a child on the spectrum I’ve had with some of my clients, being really concerned about how a divorce will affect that child in the long term and when they’re an adult. And just from your experience and your research into this, do the parents have anything to be worried about here?
Dr. Staci Weiner [22:32]
Well, I think it’s really important for parents to recognize certain things in their children during this time because we know that this is a sensitive period for any child. So the way that we can recognize maybe if they do need to seek out help, we wanna look at parents know their children, right? They know them better than anybody else, right? So really understanding that child’s personality, let’s say they have things that they love, like sports or arts or gymnastics, right? And then during the divorce process or, you know, after they start, like, not wanting to do those things that they used to love a lot, that’s really a sign, like, okay, there’s. There’s something going on Here maybe there’s something that they’re not expressing. We want to look at the kids eating habits and their sleeping habits.
Dr. Staci Weiner [23:25]
A lot of times these are things that are signs that there’s an emotional issue going on. If we see regression in a child so anything that they were normally doing that then they stopped doing, that’s really important and that’s a sign that maybe we need to pay attention to something more that’s going on with them. You know, I have also seen a lot of kids blame themselves for the divorce and trying to figure out why, why, why is this happening? Why is my life being turned upside down? Right. And so for kids who don’t understand and process well or if they’re not being told concretely what’s happening, they make it up in their own head what’s happening. And so. Right. So they draw conclusions that oh, it’s my fault.
Dr. Staci Weiner [24:14]
It’s because when I went to the park I didn’t listen to my mom and then dad got mad at mom and now this is happening. So if I were to just listen to her, sometimes we don’t even know that whole explanation until later or until the child is in therapy and they explain that and then okay, now we can address it and help them understand like no, it’s not your fault, that is not why this happened. So you know, this self blame and low self esteem you could also see as well kids can come up with certain ideas about, you know, my parents didn’t love me enough. Kids come up with all kinds of thoughts about things like that.
Dr. Staci Weiner [24:54]
And of course we know that’s not true and we want it so we want to make sure, help kids understand that they’re loved, they’re going to be taken care of and that’s consistent and that’s never going to change.
Christopher R. Bruce [25:05]
Gotcha. I bet a question’s a little off the script. So it’s if we don’t like it, we can it. But familiarity with the research on children and divorce and just children in general is if there’s a toxic environment in the household that you know, generally the children are going to better off as adults if their parents separate, even if they don’t effectively co parent than if that child were to continue growing up in the same intact but toxic household is that generally true for kids on the spectrum also?
Dr. Staci Weiner [25:42]
Absolutely, I think it’s true. Just in general, I think that a toxic environment, kids, whether they’re on the spectrum or not, they’re going to Pick up on that negative energy that’s going to cause heightened stress. In the case of kids on the spectrum, it can cause behaviors, intense anxiety and that tantrums, aggressive behavior. And these things can spill over into their performance and their functioning, their ability to perform in school or in work or their relationships. Yeah, I think a toxic environment is the worst scenario, worse than separation. And I just wanted to say one thing. It’s like, it’s really important. I like to look at the positives of situations because look, life throws us curveballs all the time, right. It doesn’t have to be that your child is just experiencing negative things.
Dr. Staci Weiner [26:41]
They can come out of this saying, wow, I handled this, I did this. It was a really hard time. And remember that time when I had to move all my stuff from here to here and I had to go back and forth and they were like, but now when life throws me another curveball, I’m prepared, I can do this. So there’s a resiliency that can also develop in children and I think that is nice for parents to hear as well. Especially if they’re in a toxic relationship. It’s a negative environment for a child to understand that with therapy and you know, with support, kids can come out of this really well and healthy.
Christopher R. Bruce [27:23]
It’s reassuring to hear and I hope that sinks in for some of the people that might be listening to this. And you know, I know we’re getting closer to the end of the time, but I have one more for you and that’s for the parents that are concerned about their soon to be ex not being an effective co parent with them. Sometimes it’s, that’s why people are coming to me to get divorced for those people that feel pretty confident that the child’s other parent is not going to be productive and attending to the needs of their spect. The reality is they’re going to be seeing that child with the way the law works in many cases.
Christopher R. Bruce [27:59]
Do you have any particular advice for that concerned parent on maybe some practical strategies they can do on their time with the child to you know, give their boy or girl the best chance of success in navigating this in the best way possible?
Dr. Staci Weiner [28:13]
Yes. So we want to make sure first of all the child understands what’s happening. Where are they going, what will they be doing? Because if the other parents, parent, let’s say, isn’t normally very involved in the child’s life or maybe doesn’t have the skills that they need to Be an effective parent. We want to make sure there’s as much predictability as possible for the child so that they understand exactly where they’re going, what they’re doing, what time, when they’re going to be home, how are they going to get home. So all these details are very important for children to understand. And an atypical child might think like, okay, I’ll get on, you know, it’s fine for kids on the spectrum, they really need to know these exact details and, you know, what exactly is occurring.
Dr. Staci Weiner [29:01]
I would also recommend giving kids an outlet to say, you know, if they have any concerns about going to the other parents without kind of leading them, like, don’t you think it’s bad to, you know, so without that doing that, just asking them if they’re, you know, how they feel about going to the other parents. Sometimes the one parent thinks it’s going to be a disaster, but the child doesn’t have any concerns. The child is fine with it. In that case, you don’t really have that much to worry about. Right. Because if the child’s okay, right, Then we want to be okay.
Christopher R. Bruce [29:36]
Right.
Dr. Staci Weiner [29:36]
Listening to your child, really being in attune with your child, and also acceptance, understanding, okay, the other parent is not going to do everything like you would do them. It’s a hard thing to accept. So that might take some work, is to really understand, like, okay, the other parent doesn’t have the skills that I have. They’re not doing the things in the same way. And that’s really frustrating and stressful for me. But they’re keeping him safe. He’s showing him love. He’s doing these things, and that’s supportive to the child and really kind of wrapping their head around that.
Christopher R. Bruce [30:10]
Staci, thank you for taking the time to answer all of these questions and more from what we had talked about talking about. For those people out there that are listening to this and think that they could benefit from your expertise, maybe take a moment to tell everybody how to get in touch with you, explain your practice a little bit more. And, you know, for those watching the video of this, there’ll be links to all of Dr. Staci’s information in the description. But if you could kind of explain how your process works and how you help people and their kids, I think that’d be great for the people taking part in this.
Dr. Staci Weiner [30:46]
Absolutely. So we currently have two office locations. One is in Boca Raton, Florida, and the other one is in Rosslyn Heights, New York, on Long Island. And we have a website, applepsychological.com, which I’m sure will be on your. Your link that you add. And so you can just. You could book online or you can call the office and schedule an appointment. And we do individual therapy, parent training. We also have a group called Pathways to Peace, a group for women who are going through the breakup of a long relationship or a separation or divorce. And that’s starting soon, so sign up if you’d like. Also we have a group called Adulting on the Spot spectrum. So it’s 16 and up.
Dr. Staci Weiner [31:34]
And really kids who are struggling on the spectrum and struggling with independence changes, going to college or changing schools or getting a job or just figuring out next steps in their life. This group is a great group. The people really bond together because they see people that have similar challenges that they have, whether it’s with understanding social cues or making friends or just understanding the world and how to do different things as they’re getting older and becoming adults. So it’s. It’s a great group. And those you can find also on the website as well.
Christopher R. Bruce [32:13]
Well, Dr. Staci, thank you so much for being part of this. I. I really appreciate it.
Dr. Staci Weiner [32:17]
Absolutely. Anytime.
