Caroline Rena – Healing from Parental Alienation and Other Traumas

Below is the transcription of this interview with Spiritual Life Leadership Coach Caroline Rena. For more information about Caroline Rena please click here. To contact her directly please call (703)-300-3995.

Transcript from Interview

Christopher Bruce: Hi, everyone. My name’s Christopher Bruce. And today I have the pleasure of being joined by Caroline Rena. And she is a spiritual licensed leadership coach. We’re both down here in the Palm Beach County area, but I know she helps people in a lot of different places. And today we’re going to talk about a very important subject and that is healing from parental alienation, but also other traumas. And Caroline has a very unique story. She’s kind of lived through some really tough stuff about what we’re talking through and came out on the other side. And now helps people deal with this and just overall make their lives better. So I guess without further ado, thank you for joining us and maybe just tell people a little bit about yourself and we’ll get into it.

Caroline Rena: All right. Thank you so much. I appreciate being here. Hi, my name is Caroline Rena, as he said. And I’ll start off with a little bit of my story. I have gone through or been through parental alienation. We generally try not to use the terminology and there’s so many different variations of it, but we’ll stick with that for now. But it’s been going on with me for just a little over 20 years. It started out where it was so long ago that you couldn’t even really find any information out online. And I didn’t even know what it was for three years. I just knew something was happening.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Caroline Rena: But the day that my ex husband left with my children, there was a story behind there of going on medication, different things like that. And I was so depressed. I was on the floor in the house that we had just purchased a few months prior in the dark. I hadn’t been eating. And I was just in such a place, I call it a dark night of the soul. And that dark night of the soul was, I felt so alone and so powerless. And he had taken the kids with him. I was in Pennsylvania at the time, so he had driven down to Virginia.

Caroline Rena: Basically, within three days of that, I had a friend come up and visit with me and help me get through that. I hadn’t eaten in months and she was helping me out with that. And then I made a decision. I wasn’t going to let, now when I say this, I don’t say it in terms of, because nobody wins in this situation. I say it where I didn’t want him to win where I ended up in a rubber room. So I made a decision and I ended up setting up an appointment in a women’s shelter and found out… Started the beginnings of what was happening because I didn’t understand.

Caroline Rena: So it was emotional abuse, controlling, all that type of thing. So for that particular thing was the beginning of my healing journey. And throughout 20 years, I’ve done… As I was going through situations with my children, I have my son, who is now 31, my daughter, who is now… How old am I? 25. And throughout the journey and throughout going through alienation, I was also healing myself, because I knew that what was happening wasn’t working. And I kept crashing in on myself and completely losing it. And my emotions would rise. I couldn’t even be in court, obviously because every time I went in there, I was like… No matter even whether I had an attorney with me or not, I was always in this position of just, I was so fearful because of all the things that had happened.

Caroline Rena: And in that process, I really learned a lot about dealing with emotions, healing from the emotions, working with the emotions. And I use things like Native American spirituality to help me heal. I used meditation. I had this other thing that was very helpful for me that I’ve already shown you, right?

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Caroline Rena: There’s this thing called shaking. When you’re in this complex PTSD mode, or you’re nervous about something and you walk away, go to the bathroom, hide in the bathroom, whatever, and you just sit there and you go like this, it just gets that energy out and help center you. Those are some of the things that I’ve learned and some of the tools that I work with people to be able to guide them through this stuff. So it’s just been this up and down rollercoaster journey of the direction to go in, and what to do, and how to center myself. And if you saw me even a couple of years ago, I would still be in… I was in isolation and it took a lot of decision making process and just, I don’t know what, I don’t know what it was. It was something that just drove me to get out of that and help other people. And I think that was part of it.

Christopher Bruce: I know we’ve spoken a few times before we did the recording today, but I mean, you really went through a lot with having a relationship with your kids affected. But now, I think you’ve done what some of my clients talk about wanting to do one day and you’ve really formed your life around helping other people who are kind of going through the type of situation you were in, but also other life challenges through your work as a life and spiritual leadership coach. May be kind of from a holistic approach. There’s some cool music stuff that we’re going to talk about a little bit too.

Christopher Bruce: But I was just curious before we talk about some of the projects that you’re doing, for people who are listening to this, who maybe they’re going through a divorce and they’re feeling like their spouse or the other parent is trying to turn their children against them, which it does happen. I mean, parental alienation is real. It’s atrocious, but it does happen. But maybe for somebody who might be living that in the moment or is fearing going through it. Leave the law to the lawyers, but do you have any tips as somebody who’s lived through this stuff as to how somebody might prioritize their life and their healing to come through on the other side of something as serious as parental alienation?

Caroline Rena: Yeah. Yeah. Just general, really simple things, especially with the kids, because the kids have a tendency to parrot the parent that they’re with. Whether or not they’re with them full-time or not. And when you’re dealing with someone who’s potentially a narcissist, they’re going to bring back whatever they say. I mean, kids parrot anyway. They listen. That’s one of the things that I tell people is that kids don’t learn through being told what to do. They learn by watching. But they do hear what’s being said. And they will repeat. You’ve got little children. You’ve heard them do that, I’m sure, a few times.

Christopher Bruce: I did that this morning.

Caroline Rena: Right? Yeah. Basically, some of the things that I generally recommend is one of the things we call is dripping love. If you’re not with your children or you are, but it’s like you’re going through the weekly back and forth custody, always send them texts, always let them know that you’re there at least in spirit, that you’re thinking of them, that you love them. And it doesn’t have to be anything major. It’s just, “Hey, I was thinking about you. I went into the store and I saw this thing. You love those things. And it made me think about you.” Little things like that is one thing.

Caroline Rena: One of the things that I think is so important to understand is that when you are going through something like this, never make your anger of your spouse more important than the love for your child.

Christopher Bruce: That’s important.

Caroline Rena: Yeah. When you do that, it immediately shifts the energy. And your children are energetic beings. I also do energy work. So for those of you who are into more metaphysical stuff, you can you get that part. You could walk into a room and you can feel the energy of the room. And sometimes it feels great and you want to be at this function or whatever you go to. And sometimes I’m like, I want to get out and walk the other direction. So that’s kind of the same thing with kids. They can feel your energy.

Caroline Rena: If you’re angry, they can feel that. Even if you don’t even know you’re angry, they’ll feel it. So make sure that you do… I can provide tools or something like deep breathing exercises, really important to just kind of center yourself so you don’t appear or don’t send out that energy with them. But having said that, just very important, never make how you feel about your soon to be ex spouse or ex spouse more important than the child. And then the last thing that I’ve done before, and there are other things as well. The other thing was back when this started for me, I literally had a 32 gallon bin full of copies of things that I sent to my children of everything. Because I didn’t know if they were going to get it.

Caroline Rena: I even took pictures of pictures, and pictures of cards, and pictures of letters and emails that I sent to them. And I just kept them in this bin. And just in case. Someday that they’re going to do it. I still have a lot of that stuff, but my 32 gallon bin is now like this. So it’s just being able to at least hold that space for them, because your space needs to be a safe space. So between having that stuff for them when they ever come back and they have questions, did you send me anything? Daddy our mommy said you didn’t love me. Then you show them, no, this is what I sent you. So you have that. Make a journal to them, write letters to them and put them in a journal for a future when they potentially can come back.

Caroline Rena: The other piece of that is do your healing work. You have to be centered. You have to be in yourself. You have to not be so agitated that the child feels that. And when you’re centered, they feel safe. So it’s important that that thing happens for you, because these kids really they’re so confused. They’re angry, they’re hurt. They don’t know what… They’re being told lies. They don’t know who’s telling the truth, but they’re going to believe the person that they’re with at the time. So stay in your lane, so to speak. And just don’t force anything. Do not ever force your story on them. No matter what they’re being told by the other parent, don’t tell them anything different because they’re not going to understand you anyway.

Caroline Rena: And that’s a big one, especially I would think for you as an attorney, because there’s the story, and then there’s the story. And then somewhere in the middle of that is the truth.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Caroline Rena: And everybody wants to believe that their perception or their whatever is the truth. Even if it is, the kids aren’t going to understand it.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Caroline Rena: Those are some of the biggest things I think are important, especially at the get-go for parents.

Christopher Bruce: Well, thank you for sharing that. And I think that’s a lot of what people who are going through this are fearing. Having a difficult or high conflict type divorce. I think all that stuff can really stand to benefit them. And we’ve spoken a lot about the different things that you’re working on really to try to, at least in my perception, help the people who went through the type of thing that you went through and other challenges in life. But maybe tell me a little bit about some of those projects that you’re working on, because you’ve got some really interesting stuff and we want to get the word out about it.

Caroline Rena: Yeah. I appreciate that question. There are a lot of projects I’m working on, because there’s so many different avenues to healing that can be done. One of the biggest projects obviously is as a coach, I also work with a partner on a group or page on Facebook called Silent Voices. And what we do with that is we interview people who, parents or really anyone who have been through a trauma, and we just go through, basically the same kind of questions here. But maybe what their trauma was, what their healing journey was, what they did to rise above. And then the types of things that they are doing now to advocate or help other people. And how they’ve gotten past all that. So we do that on Silent Voices. And then I have another big project that we’re working on.

Caroline Rena: There’s a gentleman by the name of Dr. Childress, who’s pretty popular in the realm of parental alienation. He’s a psychiatrist on the West coast. And he was telling us that this is this major thing, because no one’s ever done anything like this before. So I’m really excited. I’m not going to go into too much detail, but we do actually have a platform that does exist. And it’s working. It’s called Guardians and Gatekeepers. And what we do with Guardians and Gatekeepers is we invite professionals in the field, such as yourself, to do teachings, or maybe conversations or something. And then we have a platform, a teachable platform, where it’s like a course, somewhat like a course. And we put these speakers in there and you can talk about the types of things that you do and how it affects people, what they can do, things that can help them.

Caroline Rena: At some point we’re going to have other things added to it, but these are the things that we’re talking about right now. But it’s really exciting cause no one’s done this. And it was as a result of the virus that came. And what happened was is we had a conference set up in Lakeland in Florida, and that got shut down because it was more than 50 people. And we just had to flip real fast and make it work. So we turned that into this online conference that’s available. That at this point right now, we’re charging $50 and you get all kinds of information for an entire year. And it includes different things from attorneys, and psychiatry, and therapists, which will lead me into my next thing. Music, and healing and all kinds of different things.

Caroline Rena: So it’s for parents, it’s for professionals, it’s for all kinds of people. So, that’s really exciting when that’s one of the things I’m working on with my partners. And then the other big thing is my life partner and musical partner, Noel Neu and I, he’s a licensed psychotherapist in the state of Florida. And with the work I do with coaching, we work together not only with family healing, conscious family healing. We also have a little duo together that is called In Divinity Healing Medicine Music.

Caroline Rena: And we play it at 432 Hertz, which is actually a healing vibration. It’s the normal tuning of an instrument is at 440. It’s been around for a while, but we tune down to 432. And the words in the songs that we use, which are reminiscent of ’70s Folk Rock, are based off of my healing journey, his healing journey, our journey together. And it just connects with other people in the world. And it’s very powerful healing type music. We had started working on, and I’m not sure if that’s going to go through yet or not, depending on what happens with future, as far as the virus piece goes. But we were talking-

Christopher Bruce: … Yeah. What is it going to happen? I won’t ask you that question.

Caroline Rena: Right. Right. Yeah. We had started doing this workshop where we taught people how to write music, but the workshop obviously involves being in a location. So we’re trying to kind of rework that and see how that’s going to work. But that was really powerful. That’s some powerful healing work in there. And then I think that’s… And I have two groups, which I’ll mention how to find it later. They’re both called Glimmers of Hope on Facebook. And those are just love and support groups. There’s no gender, no biases, no nothing. It’s all about love and support. And I’ve got the moms group and then there’s an all inclusive family group. So especially people have discovered that they are not alone within these groups now. So yeah, I think that’s enough, right?

Christopher Bruce: Well, I mean, it’s a lot. A lot of what we spoke about it, I think before we did this, is your real focus when it comes to helping people, both I think as a person, but also professionally, is to focus on healing and helping people feel better about themselves. And maybe talk for a few moments about the interplay about some of your different projects, but the modalities you use in helping people heal. It’s some really interesting stuff. And it’s not like cookie cutter out of the box stuff. Maybe talk about that a little bit, because I think people would be helped to know the different options that are out there to help them feel better when they’ve been through a real trauma, including something like parental alienation.

Caroline Rena: Yeah. Okay. Let’s see. I’ll start with the family, the conscious family healing. So my partner, as I said, is a therapist. And he works with teenagers or somewhere between the teenage, 13 to 18 age group, maybe even a little older than that. And I work with the parents. I’ll just use one example. We have a family where he’s seeing the son and I’m seeing the mother. And it amazes me. He’s been seeing the son since he was six-years-old. So they love him. So he’s been with them for a while. The mom came to me in January, because of some of the things that she’s been dealing with as a result of the alienation stuff, because the kids were with her and then they decided to move out, in with the dad.

Caroline Rena: What is amazing is that part of the work I do with the coaching is I use a form of inner child work and energy work together, and work through some of the traumas that occurred when she was a child, to help her to see why she does some of her behaviors and why things are happening at this point in her life. And teaching her tools on a daily thing, like if something traumatic, or something just overwhelming, or whatever comes up, how to deal with that in the moment. Again, breathing. Deep breathing. So the transformation not only that I have seen in her since January, it started about a month and a half ago because of the work he’s doing with the son to start moving into the entire family. Because now I’m hearing about the daughter, I’m hearing about her husband now, I’m hearing about the boyfriend of the daughter.

Caroline Rena: All these different things. So the work between the two of us is actually healing the whole family dynamic. And this is nothing… We just didn’t decide one day, look it up and say, “This is what to do. And dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.” It was just something that just worked out that way. And it was incredible. And it’s so powerful. I can see the shift in my client and the shift in her son. The son now is actually standing up to his father and setting boundaries with his father. He’s 18. And it’s like, he couldn’t do that six months ago. And I think it had to do with how I was working also with his mother, because his mother was just not knowing what to do with him.

Caroline Rena: That’s just a powerful example of the type of work that we do together and separately. The other thing about the music I want to bring up is that music is healing so powerfully with the vibration and the frequency of music, that a few years ago my partner, Noel, also changed the frequency on his guitar from 440 to 432, which I explained earlier as a healing frequency. And so 432 actually works with the frequency of the earth, which is about 7.82, 83, to eight. They say eight. Oddly enough, doctors have found that the frequency in the brain is also at eight. So we connect with the earth that way. And then the 432 actually works together with the eight to produce healing in the body. So that’s one of the frequencies that we’re using. And it goes down to the cellular level and helps to heal.

Caroline Rena: And the words, of course, are very healing as well. The words you hear, it goes into the mind. The music goes directly into the body. So there’s that mind, body connection that we work with. And then there’s another frequency that we just started working on yesterday, which is a 444 frequency. More to come on that one, but I’m just really excited. Because we’re checking all these new frequencies out and seeing what happens with them because it really shifts a lot of things. So, I’m trying to think.

Caroline Rena: I think I’ve pretty much said the types of people that we work with. We can work with groups online. I don’t know about that workshop yet, obviously. But parents, children, anybody who’s been traumatized, it doesn’t necessarily have to do with alienation, because in effect, all of us have been traumatized in some way or another. Whether we recognize it. It doesn’t have to be from the home. It could have been from growing up, it could be from anywhere. So, big from trauma to triumph is our little mantra. So, that’s the work we do revolving around that.

Christopher Bruce: Well, I guess speaking of work, one of the things that you and I spent some time talking about is a documentary that you were part of. And it’s called Erasing Family. Maybe tell us a little bit more about that and what you’re trying to bring awareness to through the documentary.

Caroline Rena: Yeah. Mainly the documentary is for reunification. It’s to explain, to show what’s going on out there. There’s pieces of it… They talk about the courts, they talk about how the children are affected by decisions made by the adults, which always happens anyway, regardless of whether it’s an alienation or not. Children are always affected.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Caroline Rena: The reunification, as I talked about before is important, because we need to be centered and healthy, mentally healthy, to reunify, because it won’t stick if we’re not.

Christopher Bruce: When you talk about reunification, you mean between the child and the parent, right?

Caroline Rena: Yes.

Christopher Bruce: Just so everybody’s following.

Caroline Rena: Yes. I’ll go into a little bit of the statistics in a minute, but basically Erasing Family… I’m one of the interviewed parents in the family or in the movie. And it just shows the process of what happened from the child’s perspective and shows how the child reunified with the parent. And not just in my case, but in other cases. And how the child feels about what’s going on. So you get an inkling of what’s happening from the adult child’s perspective in there as well. So statistically, and I’m going to read something out real quick, because it’s important. Because this is what it came from. This is the reason why Erasing Family is out there. Maybe I’ll just read that first. We’ll do that first.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah, I think so. And we talked about this quote before, but I mean, it gets people’s attention. I think it would be a good thing to go over here.

Caroline Rena: Okay. Perfect. All right. So you can close your eyes or not, but imagine you’re a child. And then imagine you’re told that one of your parents isn’t good enough, isn’t fit to raise you, or doesn’t want to see you. Now as the child, imagine after 16 to 18 years of having very little contact with that parent, you become an adult and realize that none of that was true. And that parent fought to see you and was actually a fit and loving parent. And now realize that this is not happening to just one kid. This is happening to upwards of 22 million to 25 million parents, and double that with children. And then this is just in the United States alone. So the other statistic is that it’s also happening in 70 to 80% of the countries in the world and what this causes, the mental health ramifications that it causes with parents and children.

Caroline Rena: But we need to, obviously we need to focus on the children as parents. This is why we need to heal. There’s depression, anxiety, addictions, and the worst piece of this is suicide, with parents and children. And it’s just too much, I mean, our society, we’re dependent on these kids to run the society in the future. And if we’re not thinking about the ramifications, what do we do with this? So that’s important to know how big this is and worldwide a situation or issue.

Christopher Bruce: People talk about, I guess the word now… WE’re recording this during coronavirus, is pandemic. But I mean it’s really… This is a pandemic that I think it’s affecting so many people, but unlike flipping on the news and you hear all about the virus, there’s so few people understand what this is or how it affects people in the present time. But not only that, how does it affect the future generations of our society, that 15 to 25 years down the road when they’re adults, and they have relationships and they have families? If you’ve read up on attachment theory and things like that, you know how big of a deal it can be. This is affecting the generations of tomorrow. It’s all over the place. And so few people know that it’s even happening.

Caroline Rena: Right. Yeah. And that’s why the film is out to bring the awareness. Awareness is so important for people to understand. I’m going to use the word, but I quote it, “Normal family,” and you don’t ha you don’t know what that is. You’ve never heard of it. Then you just keep going through life. But all these other people are still being affected. And this society is still being run by these children who end up growing up. And they’ve already been through all this trauma growing up. I don’t know the answer to that piece of it, because that’s not me. I really honestly, and I’ve said this to you before. I think the adult children who have gone through this are the answers to what’s happening right now, because they are literally coming up slowly, but surely to speak up about what happened.

Caroline Rena: Especially once they realize what happened. And they feel guilty. And that shouldn’t have to happen. They feel guilty for pushing that other parent out of their life. And at the time they don’t know how to connect with that other parent. That’s where the confusion just keeps ongoing. So if we, as parents, start by not… Like I said earlier, by making the child more important than the anger for the other parent, and they’re getting locked into this crazy custody battle or whatever. That’s not the answer. The answer is the healing work with yourself and being calm, as calm as you can. And being there for your child, because they need you no matter what age they are. And they don’t even know it in some cases, because of this. Hopefully that answered that.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah. This stuff is incredibly important. If it’s not affecting you, it’s affecting somebody around you. And that’s the bottom line. And if it’s not affecting them now, it is going to be affecting them in the future. And I don’t know that there’s a simple instant answer to it. And I think that’s just the issue of bringing awareness that the problem is actually existing, I think is the first major thing that can happen to try to help people collectively maybe find an answer, or answers to what is a significant, I think probably largely hidden to many people, problem. And I guess Caroline, if somebody’s listening to this and what you’re talking about is resonating with them, what can they do to get in touch with you and find out about some of the resources that you have to offer, and the documentary, and then just how you might be able to help them heal?

Caroline Rena: Yeah. Okay. So I had mentioned earlier the different resources on Facebook, we have Silent Voices. It’s actually Silent Voices For the Children. And I know there’s another one out there that’s similar, but the picture has a little baby reaching up with the hands. And you can join us on that page. We’re establishing it right now, but we have the videos on there, like I talked about earlier. And then we have Glimmers of Hope. And they’re two groups, like I said, and they’re groups. They’re not pages. One group is-

Christopher Bruce: … And these are Facebook groups? So if you were to look for groups on Facebook with these names and we’ll have them, I think up on the screen when this is edited and everything.

Caroline Rena: Yeah.

Christopher Bruce: But these are Facebook groups. Sorry to interrupt.

Caroline Rena: Yeah, no, no, no. That’s good. And so Glimmers of Hope, the one group is strictly for mothers. I started that one first. It’s got almost 500 moms in there, so you’re definitely not alone. And the reason I started that is because I could find nothing for years. And it took a long time to grow that group, but there are women in there. They come in and out. They don’t stay all the time sometimes, but they’re in there. They’re supporting each other and they’re loving each other. And if anything ever comes in that makes it not safe. What are they? The private group or closed group. I’m not sure exactly.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Caroline Rena: It’s visible, but it’s not accessible unless I let you in. You have to answer a couple of questions to get in. But my intent is to keep it a safe space. I wanted to bring up, there’s no bias. I won’t tolerate dad’s and mom’s saying, “Well, because I’m mad at my ex husband or ex wife, then I’ve got to be mad at all…” For mom’s perspective, “I got to be mad at all men.” It’s not true, because there are dads out there that are so incredible, that are not able to see their kids and vice versa. I don’t even go there.

Caroline Rena: Anyway, so I’ve got the moms group, Alienated Moms. And then the dads group, or not dads, it’s a mix of grandparents, aunts, uncles, adult children, if they want to, moms, dads, whatever, whoever else wants to be in there, I call it Glimmers of Hope. All inclusive. So, that one’s a little bit smaller. I started that later. I haven’t been pushing it a lot, but I’m trying to get that set up where there’s more movement in there. And to get more, because the grandparents are important as well. Because they’re the wisdom of our lives.

Caroline Rena: We need them in there. And these children need the grandparents just as much as they need the parents. And then I have my website, which is Caroline Rena, And that shows kind of a little bit about my story. We’re revamping some of that stuff. So it may change a little bit, but it gives my story. It has links and access to the information about Erasing Family. It’s got a little bit about the music in there. And I can’t think of what else it has in there at the moment.

Caroline Rena: And then the other one is the music, which is In Divinity Productions. Okay, I’ve got to spell that. I-N-D-I-V-I-N-I-T-Y, productions, with an S, .com. And on there, you’re going to see eventually we’re working on that and we’re going to incorporating all of it under In Divinity Productions. So you’ll be able to get all the information you want to find in there. You have access to me as a coach. You’d have access to him as a therapist or a coach, because he does coaching as well, my partner. And the music. And let me see. I think that’s pretty much it with the connections.

Christopher Bruce: And for the people, I know hopefully soon in Palm Beach County, we’ll go back to where you can see people in person again, and this virus thing will be done. But for the people who you’re not coaching in person, is it fair to say that your coaching practice really doesn’t have geographic boundaries on who you can help?

Caroline Rena: Yeah, yeah. I’ve been on the phone with people from Australia, the UK, other parts of this country. So it’s kind of telehealth, but I wouldn’t really… I’m not considered a therapist.

Christopher Bruce: Yeah.

Caroline Rena: Yeah.

Christopher Bruce: Very similar though. You don’t have to be in the South Florida area to benefit from your advice.

Caroline Rena: Right. Yes, absolutely. And then join us in the groups and you’ll get a whole bunch of really positive, free information, ideas, the interviews with these people who’ve done the healing work, that are doing things like I’m working on. They’ve got ideas of things that I haven’t even thought of about with their journey. We’re just trying to mingle and mix everybody. Between not feeling alone and feeling like there’s a way out, and there is. And all you have to do is make a decision really to take a step. Because of your child, because of our future, and the future generations.

Christopher Bruce: Well, thank you, Caroline. Again, my name’s Christopher Bruce, but I’ve had the pleasure of being joined by Caroline Rena. And her website is But we’ll have all the information up in the video. And just thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to talk about what is a very personal story. But something that I think can allow a lot of people to hopefully have hope to heal, and get better, and be happier person each and every day.

Caroline Rena: Yeah. And that’s my intention. And I want to thank you as well, because my experiences over the years, I have really… You’re the first attorney I’ve run into that gets it. Because you’re living it. You’re living the experience with your clients. So I’m really grateful that there are people out there, you’re not the only one I know, but my first experience. So thank you so much for even doing this, because this is so important for these people. It’s just about love, and healing and there’s nothing more really than that. And health. So, thank you.

Christopher Bruce: It’s my pleasure. Thank you so much.

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